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bonneau_14

religeon is for the weak.

In order for something to exist there must be proof of its existence. When you kids say "it called faith" then i'll say "then i have faith you are a green jelly bean."

Z0MBiE

for kinky nipple piercings ofc.

Norrin Radd

The only thing surpassing your immeasurable talent for spouting essays without making a single point, apparantly, is your ability to create arguments that other people have said, just to argue against them.

I never once said "I am always right if I do not pick sides.".

However, is atheism fact? Is religion fact?

No and no.

Why? Because neither has 100% proof.

So then, my stance is "Neither have proven themselves correct, so I won't decide.".

Do you ever actually listen to yourself, or read your posts back?

My not picking sides states one thing; neither side has convinced me. There's no need to go deeper. You don't get to decide what me not picking sides means, I've told you what it means.

No, stop being stupid. You are being very stupid and it's getting old.

Let's break the debate down into a simple concept:

You and he both suggest there's no middle ground or that middle ground is useless.

Fact: There is middle ground. It doesn't matter how useless you think it is, or what you think of it.

The fact of the matter is, there is more to this debate than "You believe God exists, or you do not.".

Why is there a need for you to constantly try to make this more complicated than it is? It's insanely simple.

Don't start going into anything more.

Original premise: "You believe in God or you are an atheist.".

False. End.

SnOwBunZz

i'm agnostic

i believe a bigger being we cannot see, har or feel in normal situations and i refuse to call him/her/it a name (well, i have to call it something, which will be mainly "the bigger being", but not god, allah or whatever name there is for the gods now) due the fact it only brings disagreement and war

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IronyTaken

OK here is how it goes.


Someone makes a claim.

"I think Yaweh exists and that he created everything in the universe"


Now some will accept the claim saying they are convinced enough by the evidence given to them.

Lets say that it was a claim made by the christian religion. Then that person accepts the scripture as truth or believes it to be true.

Then there is someone who don't accept the claim becuase they feel that there isn't enough evidence to convince them.

That person is an atheist to that god. They don't believe/accept the claim.



then there are various differences on both sides of the claim. There are people who aren't convinced enough to believe in the claim but they aren't sure that they know it is false.

This is what most people say is an Atheist Agnostic. But I would argue that the majority of atheists are atheist agnostic. Most say they don't accept the claim but they don't know if it is false. The other hard core atheist would say they don't accept the claim and know it is false.

Then there are the people who accept the claim, but are sure that they know the claim is true. Theist agnostic. Then there is the theist gnostic who will accept the claim and say they know it is true.



Atheism is the rejection of a claim that a certain god exists. That is all it is. Atheism is not making a claim, it is I repeat, only rejecting a claim.

Now if you still don't why just saying agnosticism doesn't answer the question and why rejecting the claim makes you an atheist then...whatever.

I don't see an easier bone headed way to explain it.

Norrin Radd

If they openly say "God does not exist.", they are atheist. Not accepting religious claims is not a direct route to atheism.

You're off on a bad starting foot here.

I don't accept christian/religious scripture, that doesn't mean I'm atheist. I openly accept the possibility of God, just not fond of religion.

That is what most people say is "Agnostic". I am still unsure as to where or how you are retrieving this odd label of "Atheist agnostic". Drop the "Athiest", it's not necessary or workable here. If you do not believe in God, or gods, you are an atheist. Atheism is a decision, agnosticism is the assertion you are undecided. You cannot be both.

Your problem now comes to light. You've separated all kinds of atheists, when in reality, all atheists do not believe in God. That's the end of it. If you are unsure, you are not an atheist.

No, if you believe the claims of God are true, then you believe in God, and are no longer agnostic.

It's both. It's denial that deities exist OR it's rejection of religious claims.

Well, considering how most of this comes from your own ineptitude, desire to create your own meanings for belief terms, and a general thick-headedness that is almost as unproductive and non-sensical as trying to catch goldfish with flashlight, I'd say you're the one who needs to have a think.

The facts are simple; atheists don't believe in God, gods, deities AND/OR reject the claims.

Agnostics aren't sure so they don't commit.

Your original claim was; "You believe in God or you do not.". That's factually incorrect.

There's no "Agnostic atheists", "Atheist agnostics" or nonsense like that.

It can all be solved in a simple like; you are wrong. The question "Do you believe in God or not?" is not the only question, there is middle ground.

Now, I've told you before, if you cannot stop dwelling on this, and insist on turning the thread into a circular debate because you are choosing to ignore stone cold fact, I will lock it. Admin have said I can lock it, because everyone sees that you are being ridiculously ignorant of fact.

IronyTaken

Ok this is my last time posting to you since you can't even understand an easy explanation. You probably still won't understand this.

Agnosticism- is the statement that the existance of god is unknowable.

agnosticism can go both ways in belief.

I am an atheist to every claim I have heard of as of yet. You are an atheist to most religions are you not? christians are an atheist to every god but theirs.

If you accept the claim- theist (or whatever religion the claim was made by)

If you don't accept the claim- atheist.


atheism is not saying they know a god doesn't exists it is saying I don't believe it. I think everyone knows it is impossible to know that something doesn't exist. That is if you use the word know as pertaining to absolute knowledge. But if you want to add in an atheist who feels like they have that knowledge.

atheist gnostic- don't belief in the claim and knows that god doesn't exist.
atheist agnostic- don't belief in the claim and don;t know if god doesn't exist.


I don't think I have to explain the other side.

If you don't accept the claims then you are an atheist to those claims.
I don't care how much you deny it, it won't change anything.

There are people who don;t accept the claims of any religious god but they still believe in some form of a higher power.

Most of these people are Deists. SnOwBunZz most likely falls under that category.

Norrin Radd

I'm not an atheist at all.

Since part of that is to deny the existence of deities and God. I do not deny their existence, I am unsure.

This is where you're having trouble. Though, you shouldn't. Factual explanation should only be necessary once, to anyone over 14.

Atheism is both the rejection of claims made by religion and the denial of deities.

So I am not an atheist. Fact. No, don't start replying. I am not an atheist.

Whilst you are half correct in that atheism is a lack of belief in God, it's also an outright denial that God exists.

If I didn't have any other beliefs, I might be considered an atheist. However, due to the fact that I actively say I am undecided, that means I am not atheist. I do not deny the existence of God, and my lack of belief does not make me an atheist because it is pushed by the belief that God may exist.

Lack of belief, in atheism terms, is still derived from the idea that God does not exist. Mine doesn't.

It's both, what are you not understanding?

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...hew/intro.html

"Some atheists go beyond a mere absence of belief in gods: they actively believe that particular gods, or all gods, do not exist.".

Clearly, it's both.

Also:

"To reduce the amount of confusion over the use of term agnosticism, it is recommended that usage based on a belief that we cannot know whether God exists be qualified as strict agnosticism and usage based on the belief that we merely do not know yet be qualified as empirical agnosticism.".

"Beware of assuming that you can work out someone's philosophical point of view simply from the fact that she calls herself an atheist or an agnostic. For example, many people use agnosticism to mean what is referred to here as 'weak atheism' and use the word 'atheism' only when referring to "strong atheism.".

YOU use "Weak Atheism" as a synonym for "Agnostic".

Do not assume this applies to ME. It does not. I am a strict agnostic. I do not allow myself to be swayed either way because we cannot know, and you could qualify me as an empirical agnostic because I believe we just don't know yet. Calling agnosticism weak atheism is supremely arrogant on the part of atheists. We're not all atheists, accept it.

I am not atheist, weak or strong, as none of my beliefs are based in atheism. You are what your beliefs are based in.

You lean more toward atheism and that's where your beliefs are based, so you are an atheist to some degree. Atheism has never been a large part, or any part, of my beliefs.

I'm nothing to do with atheism. That's a fact. You cannot debate that.

My beliefs have never been part of atheist tendancies, ever.

The source and base of all my beliefs is agnosticism. I know precisely what I am, and it's not any kind of atheist. You call yourself a weak atheist, and because it's similar to agnosticism, you lump me in with you. It's not, and the difference is clear; it depends where you root your beliefs. Yours are that God doesn't exist, probably, or that you reject claims that he does for sure. Mine are rooted in not being sure. That's what makes you a kind of atheist, and me not so.

It's not hard.

It doesn't matter what you care, you do not get to decide my beliefs.

I am not an atheist in the slightest. Nothing about atheism has ever worked for me. The labels, when similar, are applied based on personal perspective. I am not atheist.

Fact. Undeniable truth. I am no kind of atheist. Undeniable fact.

I know what they are.

The only one here confused is you. You still try to deny my claims about myself, you cannot.

End.

leathel

Out of everything said here this is probably the most stupid. But each to their own.

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Norrin Radd

This has just turned into people either dissing religion or each other.

Closing.