WarlordRody's Debate #1 Grinding - Page 2

fattymac21 · 04-21-2008, 05:35 AM

I hate grinding because there is nothing really fun or entertaining in most games to make it even seem somewhat fun (i.e. combat) and I couldn't see how you'd feel like you've accomplished something, unless it's some sort of bored out of your mind award, seing as how you're most likely spamming some sorts of skills.

shade45 · 04-21-2008, 06:36 AM

I'd say the grind in WoW was handled extremely well. I've only gotten as high as lvl 34 on retail (and about 45 on 3x *cough* servers), and so far on both, all leveling was done by just doing quests and killing the mobs needed for quests. I know after about lvl 40 there aren't as many quests around and you gotta travel around to get quests, but it's still quite fun.

Sweeps · 04-21-2008, 06:50 AM

i really don't mind grind,
aslong as the grind contributes to something later on. Eg. PvP
Depending on the game, if the skills are flashy, tha ussually takes away the grind.
same with graphics. just looking at the scenery of some MMO's makes me forget im grinding lol.

justinf12000 · 04-21-2008, 12:20 PM

Ahh grinding, the one thing that every MMO needs, but everyone hates. Personally I agree with a few other people on this, I think grinding is alright as long as its fun. For example; in Phantasy Star Online BB, you are encouraged to work together in small but effective groups in a action packed system. It's that sense of teamwork and the entertaining battles that make grinding bearable.

Believe me, grinding in PSOBB in a huge part of the game. It's the way its done that makes it bearable.

Warlordrody · 04-21-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn7ghT

Also, there should be 2 restrictions, a low level cap, or a steady exp gain at later levels. .01% is just mad, too mad, and is the reason I don't play high level cap mmos. The most important key to gaming is balance, and most Korean developers don't know that. Most people don't have all the damn time in the world to grind, while a 40 year old man living in his basement can pass everybody in terms of levels.

I agree with this. A game should be casual and hardcore friendly. Its true that most of the developers seems only to care about money. Y0 letz make a grinding game which will bring us moneyz is their motto ><

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn7ghT

In other words, grinding takes the fun out of what gaming was originally made of. Look at classics such as pacman and mario, it's not about spending time not having fun and hitting max level, its about competition and having fun, and thats what all games should be about, fun.

I think this is because people have the feeling they can change the world in the game. As example: OMFG i killed this frikken hard boss and now i defeated all the evil in the world. It gives the feeling that the players has done something. Thats why a feature being able to change the world in a mmo should be available.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kn7ghT

Who gave you the mighty thor's hammer of debate?

Sorry i cant tell you who gave me the mighty hammer ><

neothaka · 04-21-2008, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Warlordrody

Okay guys. Back in the old onrpg we used to have alot of debates. I really enjoyed them. So iam planning to ressurecting it a bit. This is my first one. Iam planning to start one every week or few days. (Depends how popular it becomes)

This time the subject is... Grinding.

Every MMORPG has grind. People Either love it or hate it. I will be discussing the good sides of grind and the bad sides. Some people will think? Good sides with grinding? No way!! Yes there are some good sides.

1) What keeps the majority to a MMO? The anwser: Grind..
You will be thinking: Grind!! no way thats not fun!!. 0.01% with maplestory is just sick X.X. Yes i cant disagree with that. But imagine what if there was no grind in maple story? That you would be max level in a week? Or even no levels? but only farming items and gold? It takes the whole fun part from maple story away. Because you have the feeling you cant achieve something. Something that will make you better than the rest. Like showing off your high level character. Socializing with other people when grinding. Without grind MMORPGS will just be boring in my opinion.

2) Yep but with grind, MMORPGS can also become boring. Because in mid-high levels you usually get 0.01% per monster. That makes playing it feel like work. And that shouldnt be the purpose of a game. A game should be fun. This is the reason why the majority of the mmo's fail. And when people achieve max level, whats left to do? Some pvp some raidbosses. Getting the best equips. Sieging, a castle with your guild, go on a pk rampage. And after you done this you are done with this MMORPG.

3) So, When we take away the grind in a MMORPG, What will be left to do? Only some other content like pvping sieging. Grind is something that keeps players to the game.

4) So how can developers improve it? I think the anwser is clear after you have read all of this: Adding alot of feature's. What do you think about A world that can be influenced by your characters actions? That is something that can keep players to the game for a long time.

A perfect way to keep the grinding fun In my opinion is: Adding alot of levels and make leveling up fast. As example 5000 levels. But these 5000 levels will take the same time to reach max level in another game. And of course adding alot of feature's not just 4-5 But ALOT more. Heck the reason why singeplayer RPG's are so awesome is because you are able to change the world.

Well this is it. I hope you learned something from this.
I will post another one depending on how popular this becomes.

Post your opinion about this people!

so, i'll mark them according to argument.

1) What you say is a "risky" statement. So to say that grinding on one hand makes the MMORPG while on the others, it kills it. I am of opinion that "grinding" is perfectly unnecassery.
When i take it from from your logics of achievement, i beg to differ to the exact opposite. The fact that grinding can become incredibly tedious is causing an equally bad effect in terms of achievements.
In absolute terms, progress equals achievements in games. But according to me, "grinding" is the exact opposite of progress. Therefore, imo grinding doesn't bring achievement, but in fact takes away the feeling of achievement alltogether.

2) This part is bothering me the most in your post. You are clearly suggesting that these 2 contradictory "types of grinding" co-exist in an MMORPG.
If you ask me, i would rephrase it so that your first argument is the first phase of grinding, while argument 2 is the second phase and inevitable result of grinding.

3) I, again beg to differ, there is far more than grinding that keeps a player to a game. In fact, you are making a contradictory statement again, at least, contradictory with the common flow of things anyway. It's well known that MMORPG players usually leave that particular MMORPG due to excessive grinding, amongst the main reasons. To backup my point i refer to 2 simple scenarios.
the first being Lord of the Rings Online. the "grind" is above all not the aspect that keeps me playing it, it are all the others features apart from grinding in fact, that make me stay.

the second scenario is a bit of statement-buster in this case. How about games that don't even feature a level system (i.e. Ultima Online)? even those are pretty limited, they still make a valid point

4) This is still "virtual idealism". Having players descisions have a direct impact on the game world, is currently not "possible". In offline rpg's this is easy, since it's all scripted. You can't script a massive multiplayer online and have it to work.

Vesper · 04-21-2008, 07:12 PM

Depends on how you define grind.

Phr0zen · 04-21-2008, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vesper

Depends on how you define grind.

Usually people get grind confused.

Grind = repetition of a boring task

The keyword is boring.

For instance, in Dark Age Of Camelot you had to repeatedly kill monsters for experience just like you do for 99% of all mmorpgs. However, I felt that DAOC did not have a grind because every kill of every level I had a great deal of fun. Most likely I did not feel a grind because the combat system(and other factors) made the game fun for me. I had no problems killing monsters endlessly to level in DAOC.

Now, lets take WoW for example. Even in the alpha stage I new this game wasn't for me. I gave it the benefit of the doubt though and purchased the retail because my friends wanted to play. I felt the "grind" in this game from the first monster that I killed. The game is just so slow, and combat system so stale and boring that every kill was excruciatingly boring.

Some argue that WoW isn't "grindy" especially when compared to other mmorpgs (lineage 2 anyone?), but from my example the grind is perceived only when the task itself is boring.

neothaka · 04-21-2008, 08:01 PM

that should have been the main subject of the debate to begin with

"define grinding"

justinf12000 · 04-22-2008, 12:48 AM

Then in that case to me the definition of grinding is, the purposeful slowing down of the player characters development to further hook the player into playing more than usual.

To me, that is what grinding means.

04-21-2008, 05:35 AM	#11 (permalink)
fattymac21 Murxidon's Maid Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: That's Stupid. Posts: 1,412 Reputation: 9 MMOFaces Profile: None Yet	I hate grinding because there is nothing really fun or entertaining in most games to make it even seem somewhat fun (i.e. combat) and I couldn't see how you'd feel like you've accomplished something, unless it's some sort of bored out of your mind award, seing as how you're most likely spamming some sorts of skills. __________________ bitches.

04-21-2008, 06:36 AM	#12 (permalink)
shade45 Bladin's Sword Sharpener Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,138 Reputation: 20 MMOFaces Profile: None Yet	I'd say the grind in WoW was handled extremely well. I've only gotten as high as lvl 34 on retail (and about 45 on 3x cough servers), and so far on both, all leveling was done by just doing quests and killing the mobs needed for quests. I know after about lvl 40 there aren't as many quests around and you gotta travel around to get quests, but it's still quite fun. __________________

04-21-2008, 06:50 AM	#13 (permalink)
Sweeps Sun? What Sun? Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Down Under Posts: 977 Reputation: 19 MMOFaces Profile: None Yet	i really don't mind grind, aslong as the grind contributes to something later on. Eg. PvP Depending on the game, if the skills are flashy, tha ussually takes away the grind. same with graphics. just looking at the scenery of some MMO's makes me forget im grinding lol. __________________ Such Is Life

04-21-2008, 08:01 PM	#19 (permalink)
neothaka Str1der's Stooge Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2,690 Reputation: 13 MMOFaces Profile: None Yet	that should have been the main subject of the debate to begin with "define grinding" __________________ "I wish my lawn was emo, so it would cut itself."

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04-21-2008, 12:20 PM	#14 (permalink)
justinf12000 Luigi’s Pizza Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 140 Reputation: 10 MMOFaces Profile: None Yet	Ahh grinding, the one thing that every MMO needs, but everyone hates. Personally I agree with a few other people on this, I think grinding is alright as long as its fun. For example; in Phantasy Star Online BB, you are encouraged to work together in small but effective groups in a action packed system. It's that sense of teamwork and the entertaining battles that make grinding bearable. Believe me, grinding in PSOBB in a huge part of the game. It's the way its done that makes it bearable.

04-22-2008, 12:48 AM	#20 (permalink)
justinf12000 Luigi’s Pizza Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 140 Reputation: 10 MMOFaces Profile: None Yet	Then in that case to me the definition of grinding is, the purposeful slowing down of the player characters development to further hook the player into playing more than usual. To me, that is what grinding means.

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