Str1der

It's not hard to understand, but when do you draw the line between Science and Religion? For almost all of mankinds creation, religion has guided science. Scientists learned so much from the Bible alone to justify it's validity. The two go hand in hand and they always have. Religion exists as a means to serve and explain what can't be explained by science. It fills in the holes that science can't explain, just as science makes clear what the Bible does not.

Evolution is by no means a theory or an idea that should be shot down based purely on the fact that it contradicts the Bible. Hell, some Christians believe that is what God used to shape our planet. I personally do not. There is no proof. There are speculations and ideas that seem to favor it some times, but there is no hard physical evidence. You find me that "missing link" and we'll talk. You tell me why creatures once thought to have gone extinct or have evolved on to a different form are still popping up in our world. Until that time it should not be taught as a fact or in our classes as one. Creationism is just as much science as Evolution is. Both take their own form of "Faith" to believe in. I just chose the one that made more sense. Primordial soup which happened to "will" itself in to becoming a human just didn't seem to cut it for me.

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Marineking

I am not a biologist - I am not going to argue evolution with you. If evolution is taught as fact, then that is something you should take up with the teacher. At least it is where it belongs - in science class. And at the very least, there is some proof of it and it can be measured and argued.

And even assuming that evolution is false, that does not constitute proof of creationism. It means there is a third alternative, and we have to find it.

EDIT: @ Strider

You draw the line when you can find some evidence in the physical world. Even if the theory of evolution is flawed (And I'm not saying it is), at least it has that going for it. It has a reasonable premise, and something to work on. Creationism, by contrast, completely contradicts the physical world. it's only real "proof" is that we cannot really understand it, and that we should believe it because of that. The line is not invisible, you simply need to recognize what is and is not reality.

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Norrin Radd

Here's the difference:

Evolution is a scientific theory that has a shitload of evidence backing it up. If you wanted to suggest that evolution shouldn't be taught as factually as it is, then fine. Suggesting that creationism has as much right is ridiculous, though.

Creationism is literally irrelevant to anybody non-religious. Evolution isn't faith based, therefore it takes greater priority over something you just believe a lot. If you think creationism should be brought into schools, I agree on one condition; it has to be taught as part of religious education. "Here is what people who adhere to the bible believe, creationism. Here's what is is, and what it means.". Not separate, as a legitimate and credible theory, because it isn't. It holds less water than a sieve after going one on one with a minigun.

Then take them out. To suggest there's no rational proof that evolution is true is as ridiculous as believing creationism to be equal. If there's no proof for evolution, there's less for creationism.

Fine, you're against it being expressed as the one and only truth, ok, I can understand this. I do not understand this desire for creationism to be treated as equal. What about people who do not want their kids' time wasted with bs about how a God (One they possibly do not even believe in) created them and everything else? Because that's essentially as far as the theory of creationism goes. "God created the Heaven and the Earth.".

Like Ricky Gervais said; "It doesn't go into much more detail than that. It essentially amounts to religious people saying 'Trust us...he did.'".

Where do you go after "God created the Heaven and the Earth.", perhaps a bit more? Teaching the theory of evolution alongside creationism is just going to make a lot more people become atheist.

"So wait, teacher. You're saying it's a choice between a theory with a reasonable amount of scientific reasoning, study and proof, sans an overall factual conclusion...or believing that a superbeing just made everything? Are you fucking serious?".

Evolution being taught as fact is "wrong", but it's taught in science, which is correct. Creationism belongs nowhere besides religious education.

Personally? I believe Doug Stanhope, the comedian. "Religion, like porn, should not enter anyone's life until they are 18. There's a sinister coincidence between the level of suspended belief required to become religious, and the ages that people become religious. Let's see how many adults choose religion as an answer and way of life after they've lived 'til they're 18 without any influence, from athiest or religion.".

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Neog

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FabianN

Evolution has more proof to it than 90% of our current scientific "facts".
Nearly all of science is theorys. Theories, as you always seem to ignore this little fact, is based off of REAL PROOF.

Evolution is REAL.
There has just been a 20 year old study on the evolution of a virus. Over that 20 years, it did whats called macro evolution. It was seen under a microscope, it was monitored with instruments, it's real.
100% real.
Now, the details on the process are fuzzy, and thats where it becomes a theory.

But it DOES happen.

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Norrin Radd

Exactly, Fab.

Either way, I never actually saw God as opposed to evolution, just creationism, which is dumb.

Back to you, Fab, at the news desk.

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Str1der

So you found that "Missing Link" did you? You base your theory of creation on assumption. Scientists have assumed that this happened on this occasion, leading to this result. It's all assumptions. Nothing can be proven untill we one day develop a time machine. Why is it that your "shitload of evidence" seems so... shitty?

Evolution is completely irrelevant to anybody religious. Wait.. that's most of the world, isn't it? Even religions that have nothing to do with Christianity have their own means of explaining where human life came from, and they don't need a bunch of broken and fact-less data to tell them other wise.

There is no proof for the theory of evolution. It's an assumption created by atheists to explain where human life came from. It's a well thought out one that honestly deserves thought. That doesn't make it a fact though. You say you have a bunch of proof to prove your theory correct, and I say I have just as much, if not more to prove my beliefs using scripture and common sense.

What about people who do not want their kids' time wasted with bs about how a primordial bowl of soup willed it's way in to becoming human? You can tell them to go to a private school all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that their being forced in to doing so just to learn something that their parents prefer them to hear.

You want to know why it appears like more people tend to lean towards evolution and not creationism? It's because those people get to learn, for free might I add, all about the fantastic and wonderful proofs of evolution everyday in school. We just pay to make sure our kids learn the truth. That's the difference.

I could care less if it made more people become atheist. My goal isn't to force you to become a Christian or religious at all for that matter. The fact remains that if you teach one theory then you teach them all. Until the day that Evolution proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that there is no God, you teach them all. (Hint, that day won't happen)

"So wait, teacher. You're saying it's a choice between a theory in which a big bowl of shit willed itself in to walking on land and eventually becoming a human with no proof at all... or believing that a grand mastermind guided and shaped our creation with the utmost precision and care? Are you fucking serious?"

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Cloud13

*sigh* I don't even know why we debate, nobody ever changes their minds in the end.

You can't compare a virus with people and animals. And in the first place, if evolution were true, why are their still so many primitive animals? insects? microorgamisms? Wouldn't they have evolved into something more advanced?

And in the very first place, how did a pile of soup in a ditch decide to come to life?

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Norrin Radd

Where did I claim evolution was fact? Go on. A cookie if you win.

How funny. They don't need broken, fact-less data...but the bible is fine? Creationism is fine?

Clarify yourself, please. Clarify how creationism is as credible.

Was that a joke, or did you say there's no proof for the theory of evolution? Just so I know whether or not to indulge your next reply or not.

I'm not one of these idiots who will give you the time of day if you're literally that dumb, because there's no talking to you. Don't get me wrong, I do think science is far too privileged, especially by smug atheists, but you're being...well...stupid.

The fact is, you were not born religious, it's a personal belief you chose to adopt and carry with you. Evolution has a lot more proof. Evolution takes priority because it's not based in faith. I'm agnostic, but to suggest faith is equal to fact is wrong.

Truth? What is the truth? That evolution is not fact, not that creationism is. Creationism isn't even as credible, it has less proof, if any.

Yes, you can make the evolutional theory seem stupid if you do that. I didn't try to make creationism seem stupid in mine, I said what it is, and it's ridiculous by comparison.

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Str1der

Wondered what was taking Fab so long to join in on this conversation.

We're talking about two different forms of Evolution, Fab. The "Evolution" of viruses over time is real. It's the adaptation of the creature to survive and live on. Things force it to have to change its living condition and it does so through those means. At the end of the day, that virus will never become a human. Through the process of a billion years, that virus will never become a human. It's just a virus.

I agree that most of science is a theory. It deserves to be taught and I believe people should see what Evolution is believed to be. That being said, if you teach one theory you have to teach them all. No playing favorites.

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