Well, I was bored as hell last night and I couldn't go to sleep, so I started thinking. One of the first topics that came to mind was "Jesus". Now, don't go flaming me cuz I'm an Aetheist or any of that bullshit, because I'm not!

What came to mind was the fact that he sacrificed himself for this world we live in today and will continue to live in for (probably) ever. I started to improvise on that and came to the fact that he showed us near impossible things. Through those things came lessons that he taught us, and we heed his words even today. But, the thing is, maybe we idolize HIM too much and not the stuff he did. Everyone is grateful that he died for our sins, yes, but one of the other things he did was show us that NOTHING is impossible. Even today, we believe that to be a lie. It's because we view Jesus as an individual that sacrificed himself for the better of all people and is the Lords' son, but we don't view him as a being like us.

Jesus had even stated that he was only human. Does that mean we can accomplish even more than Jesus? Maybe, but that's a topic for another time. What I'm trying to say now is that, maybe Jesus didn't want us to make him a celebrity, so to say, more than he wanted us to listen to his words and help OURSELVES to help mankind.

ugh this is gonna end up like every other religion topic a flame war xD

Of course it is...but it's worth a try! ^_^ lol

I see HOW it will turn into a flame war, but I don't see WHY! Why do people feel so abused when it comes to religion? Wanna know why? Cuz they're afraid. They're afraid they might be wrong! But, that's nothing to be afraid of! There is no right or wrong in religion because we don't have the FACTS to prove it.

~shudders and fears being wrong~ **** YOU I'M ALWAYS RIGHT!

Of course you have to butcher ALL of my threads, Shadow. XD Just kiddin.

Kiddin? It's true. That's my job, I like to do it, I have fun doing it. If I was paid to do it, I'd be RICH!

Hes not my celebrity though, I treat him as a motivation for my life.

He's our(Christians) savior...

Jesus is my brother from another mother.:p

Jesus was black.

What came to mind was the fact that....

I stopped reading around then, due to the fact that your post lost all credibility.

It's not a "fact" that he did anything, it's not a fact that he even existed. It's an opinion and a belief.

-Ripe

RipeforTraining and to those that actually care,

(Two sources for each side, read at least one of each side, don't read just one side.) Posting this because of RipeforTraining's 2 posts of the questioning of Jesus' existance. You decide...
Did not:
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_nojesus.html

Did:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

Heh you can tell me those are bad links if you want. I don't really mind i'm not gonna research them and crap. THat's why I put 2 articles for each side.

Jesus was black.
What you say is true.

RipeforTraining and to those that actually care,

(Two sources for each side, read at least one of each side, don't read just one side.) Posting this because of RipeforTraining's 2 posts of the questioning of Jesus' existance. You decide...
Did not:
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html
http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/christianity_nojesus.html

Did:
http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html
http://www.bede.org.uk/jesusmyth.htm

Heh you can tell me those are bad links if you want. I don't really mind i'm not gonna research them and crap. THat's why I put 2 articles for each side.

Yeah, what's your point? Those are opinions. There's no factual, undeniable evidence that he existed. I don't know if he did or not, I'm not saying he didn't, not saying he did.

I'm saying don't go around claiming things as fact if they're not fact.

-Ripe

Yeah, what's your point? Those are opinions. There's no factual, undeniable evidence that he existed. I don't know if he did or not, I'm not saying he didn't, not saying he did.

I'm saying don't go around claiming things as fact if they're not fact.

-Ripe

Well, if you can't prove he didn't exist then stay out of it. You're a skeptic, you obviously bring it up because you refuse to believe anything the Bible says and dismiss it as "fairy tales". You can have your opinion but don't bring up bullshit if you aren't gonna prove it.

Edit: I apologize for going overboard a bit. Seriously though, there's no factual or undeniable evidence about alot of stuff. If it was all factual and undeniable there'd be alot more believers. You tell me, whats the point of faith, if God wanted EVERYONE to believe in Him, don't you think He'd make us all believe. No, that's not His plan. http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm
That link may sound like what I said is wrong but I said that in a matter pertaining to the main idea, being that undeniable facts be the deciding factor for everyones faith. Which would eliminate faith. Not to mention that everything around us is God's creation, therefore there's no excuse, unless it is not in his will.

Well, if you can't prove he didn't exist then stay out of it. You're a skeptic, you obviously bring it up because you refuse to believe anything the Bible says and dismiss it as "fairy tales". You can have your opinion but don't bring up bullshit if you aren't gonna prove it.

Edit: I apologize for going overboard a bit. Seriously though, there's no factual or undeniable evidence about alot of stuff. If it was all factual and undeniable there'd be alot more believers. You tell me, whats the point of faith, if God wanted EVERYONE to believe in Him, don't you think He'd make us all believe. No, that's not His plan. http://www.carm.org/uni/allmensaved.htm
That link may sound like what I said is wrong but I said that in a matter pertaining to the main idea, being that undeniable facts be the deciding factor for everyones faith. Which would eliminate faith. Not to mention that everything around us is God's creation, therefore there's no excuse, unless it is not in his will.

You can't prove he did exist any more than I can prove he can't. There is no factual evidence that he existed, and there is a lot more to suggest that he didn't exist, but nobody knows. NOBODY.

I don't need to back up my opinion, because my opinion is that;

A) Nobody can prove either way.

and B) I don't care if he did or not. I'd not be religious anyway. I have nothing against faith, just organised religion.

People shouldn't go around saying "fact", it's not a fact that he existed, it's an opinion, a belief. Something people have faith in.

If I had to classify myself, I'd call myself a pessimistic agnostic, but I don't go around saying they do or don't exist. I don't care if they do.

It's YOU people who get annoyed simply because we're not accepting your so-called facts. If you've chose to believe in Jesus and God, then fine, but you cannot prove either of them exist, nobody can, hence why they're called "faiths".

You say "It's in his plan.", but that's only because you believe he exists. It's not a fact. You weren't born a Christian. You chose to become Christian. Don't be so damn self-righteous as to assume that because you are a Christian, that your belief is the default.

-Ripe

Well, I was bored as hell last night and I couldn't go to sleep, so I started thinking. One of the first topics that came to mind was "Jesus". Now, don't go flaming me cuz I'm an Aetheist or any of that bullshit, because I'm not!

What came to mind was the fact that he sacrificed himself for this world we live in today and will continue to live in for (probably) ever. I started to improvise on that and came to the fact that he showed us near impossible things. Through those things came lessons that he taught us, and we heed his words even today. But, the thing is, maybe we idolize HIM too much and not the stuff he did. Everyone is grateful that he died for our sins, yes, but one of the other things he did was show us that NOTHING is impossible. Even today, we believe that to be a lie. It's because we view Jesus as an individual that sacrificed himself for the better of all people and is the Lords' son, but we don't view him as a being like us.

Jesus had even stated that he was only human. Does that mean we can accomplish even more than Jesus? Maybe, but that's a topic for another time. What I'm trying to say now is that, maybe Jesus didn't want us to make him a celebrity, so to say, more than he wanted us to listen to his words and help OURSELVES to help mankind.
Jesus turned water into wine and walked on water
you'd be better off triing to go super sayian

What you say is true.

I thought he was asian... O_o

You can't prove he did exist any more than I can prove he can't. There is no factual evidence that he existed, and there is a lot more to suggest that he didn't exist, but nobody knows. NOBODY.

You're right, but what would factual evidence be? You can't prove alot of people in History textbooks existed but they still put them in there as if a fact. -_-

I don't need to back up my opinion, because my opinion is that;

A) Nobody can prove either way.

and B) I don't care if he did or not. I'd not be religious anyway. I have nothing against faith, just organised religion.

I didn't say just because Jesus existed that everyone would be religious. I said God could make us all believe if it was in his plan.

In no way do I plan on or think I am converting anyone, including you.

People shouldn't go around saying "fact", it's not a fact that he existed, it's an opinion, a belief. Something people have faith in.

You're right, but tell them to cut out alot of the people from history textbooks too. With those only containing written documents that record their existance. Right?

If I had to classify myself, I'd call myself a pessimistic agnostic, but I don't go around saying they do or don't exist. I don't care if they do.

I don't go around telling people I'm a christian. Did I post my side and say JESUS EXISTED THAT'S A FACT? NO I did not! I post both sides up there and told, whoever is interested, to decide. Not once did I say it's a fact that Jesus existed. I'm a little more cautious than that, but do I believe he existed? Of course.

It's YOU people who get annoyed simply because we're not accepting your so-called facts. If you've chose to believe in Jesus and God, then fine, but you cannot prove either of them exist, nobody can, hence why they're called "faiths".

I got annoyed that you brought it up twice that he supposedly does not exist. I never called it a fact. You're right, no one can prove undeniably. There are plenty of arguments that would tell you that there is a God though.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/billramey/kalam.htm. There's one argument.

You say "It's in his plan.", but that's only because you believe he exists. It's not a fact. You weren't born a Christian. You chose to become Christian. Don't be so damn self-righteous as to assume that because you are a Christian, that your belief is the default.

And? I wasn't born a Christian, no, I never said that. I did choose that's the whole point -_- everyone has to make that choice. I never said my belief is default. Not once have I been arrogant enough to tell someone who didn't believe in God that they are wrong and will burn for it. Not at all do I think I'm self-righteous.

I do have faith in my beliefs though and will stand up for them just like you would stand up for your beliefs.

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ddc1/awjeez.jpg

You're right, but what would factual evidence be? You can't prove alot of people in History textbooks existed but they still put them in there as if a fact. -_-

People had met Hitler, Mussolini etc. Nobody had met Jesus. That's a stupid example, man, come on.

You can do a bit better than that.

I didn't say just because Jesus existed that everyone would be religious. I said God could make us all believe if it was in his plan.

This is assuming that God exists. It's your opinion that he does, it's not a fact.

In no way do I plan on or think I am converting anyone, including you.

Nobody could. I'm not saying your God doesn't exist, I'm not saying he does.

You're right, but tell them to cut out alot of the people from history textbooks too. With those only containing written documents that record their existance. Right?

God is a deity, for one. Hitler existed, there's footage of Hitler, there's footage of a lot of historical figures. There's nothing to suggest Jesus existed besides sackfuls of faith and a whole lot of opinion.

Nothing more, nothing less. You're getting desperate.

I don't go around telling people I'm a christian. Did I post my side and say JESUS EXISTED THAT'S A FACT? NO I did not! I post both sides up there and told, whoever is interested, to decide. Not once did I say it's a fact that Jesus existed. I'm a little more cautious than that, but do I believe he existed? Of course.

Fair enough.

I got annoyed that you brought it up twice that he supposedly does not exist. I never called it a fact. You're right, no one can prove undeniably. There are plenty of arguments that would tell you that there is a God though.

So? There are many more that would say there isn't. The fact is, the only thing Christians have is faith, and occurances that they place their faith IN. Atheists (of which I am not one) have evidence...well...everywhere, to support their arguments.

Christian: God exists because this happened!
Atheist: No, that's just an occurance and your faith is allowing you to believe it was God. Nothing there proves that it was God.

It's belief Vs belief, subjective all the way. Nobody can win.

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/billramey/kalam.htm. There's one argument.

I've been through university, I've debated on such subjects. I've had this debate on many messageboards and seen links from every end of cyberspace.

No argument has ever convinced me that there is a god, I've never seen a good argument from anyone trying to make that debate either. I don't say there ISN'T a god simply because I accept that -- as a human -- there's a lot we'll never understand. No flimsy argument will convince me.

And? I wasn't born a Christian, no, I never said that. I did choose that's the whole point -_- everyone has to make that choice. I never said my belief is default. Not once have I been arrogant enough to tell someone who didn't believe in God that they are wrong and will burn for it. Not at all do I think I'm self-righteous.

Maybe not intentionally, and you generally do have a good attitude about it, but you said this might all be God's plan. That's assuming he exists, which he might not.

Beliefs cause the mind to stop functioning.

-Ripe

People had met Hitler, Mussolini etc. Nobody had met Jesus. That's a stupid example, man, come on.

>_> So close-minded... I'm talking about people further back than 80 years. Such as Hannibal.

God is a deity, for one. Hitler existed, there's footage of Hitler, there's footage of a lot of historical figures. There's nothing to suggest Jesus existed besides sackfuls of faith and a whole lot of opinion.

Ok first off, I never said Hitler, I'm talking baout people further back than 80 years. People that were only recorded in documents and they still use them as factual characters in history. Second of all, why deny he existed? Why not just deny everything he's done? It makes more sense.

So? There are many more that would say there isn't. The fact is, the only thing Christians have is faith, and occurances that they place their faith IN. Atheists (of which I am not one) have evidence...well...everywhere, to support their arguments.

LMFAO Atheists have evidence... HAHAHA like they have evidence of the non-existance of god. SAY IT just SAY IT!! "I don't see Him intervening, I've never seen Him" Say it... You my friend are getting desperate.

Christian: God exists because this happened!
Atheist: No, that's just an occurance and your faith is allowing you to believe it was God. Nothing there proves that it was God.

What? lol Everything that happens is according to God in a Christian perspective. So "Atheist" needs to keep his own "facts" to himself.

It's belief Vs belief, subjective all the way. Nobody can win.

Exactly. Eliminate your moronic statement that Atheists have evidence and religious, god-fearing people don't

I've been through university, I've debated on such subjects. I've had this debate on many messageboards and seen links from every end of cyberspace.

Good for you.

No argument has ever convinced me that there is a god, I've never seen a good argument from anyone trying to make that debate either. I don't say there ISN'T a god simply because I accept that -- as a human -- there's a lot we'll never understand. No flimsy argument will convince me.

Don't believe then.

Maybe not intentionally, and you generally do have a good attitude about it, but you said this might all be God's plan. That's assuming he exists, which he might not.

And my faith tells me he exists. So what is your point? How else should I say it, I think it's according to God's plan but He might not exist so I don't know? WRONG.

Beliefs cause the mind to stop functioning.

Wrong. Correct, however, considering theories like evolution are thought up and then blown out of proportion, thrown out there as if an undeniable fact.

>_> So close-minded... I'm talking about people further back than 80 years. Such as Hannibal.

I'll deal with that point soon.

Ok first off, I never said Hitler, I'm talking baout people further back than 80 years. People that were only recorded in documents and they still use them as factual characters in history. Second of all, why deny he existed? Why not just deny everything he's done? It makes more sense.

I'm not denying he existed, I'm saying he might not, and nobody can prove for or against. Nobody, without exception.

Everything he's done? Like what? That's the problem with people who believe in Jesus, they refuse to accept that it's a BELIEF. You view these events as acts of Jesus, what acts? You don't know they even happened, you're just told they did.

With other historical figures, we have evidence that a lot of them existed, works, historical PROVEN marks, events that have caused things in the modern world.

The only evidence we have for Jesus are faith based opinions. You choose to believe they were acts of Jesus, you choose to believe he existed. Historical acts that you refer to were never as impossible as that which Jesus did. It's all opinion.

LMFAO Atheists have evidence... HAHAHA like they have evidence of the non-existance of god. SAY IT just SAY IT!! "I don't see Him intervening, I've never seen Him" Say it... You my friend are getting desperate.

I'm not an athiest, so I don't believe that. I think it's bullshit logic, actually. The whole "If he's real, why isn't he intervening?" argument is crap.

However, that's just as stupid as saying: "LOOK! JESUS DID THESE THINGS!", to me. I've got no proof that he did, that he existed, that they happened.

What? lol Everything that happens is according to God in a Christian perspective. So "Atheist" needs to keep his own "facts" to himself.

The fact is, there has been no proveable existence of God, correct? Fact. That is a stone cold fact, and that is one CORRECT argument that athiests use (For the last time, I'm not an athiest). There hasn't been a proven existence of God. Most athiests I know don't base their arguments on proving the non-existence of God, just that there isn't any proof of him existing so far.

There isn't.

Exactly. Eliminate your moronic statement that Atheists have evidence and religious, god-fearing people don't

It's not a moronic statement. Athiests make moronic claims, sure, but that doesn't mean they're all full of moronic arguments. I've heard arguments from BOTH sides that I can respect, even if I disagree.

The FACT is, if an athiest says to you: "There is no factual evidence that God exists.", he or she would be factually correct. You cannot, conversely, say: "There is.".

And my faith tells me he exists. So what is your point? How else should I say it, I think it's according to God's plan but He might not exist so I don't know? WRONG.

Faith is just that, faith. I had faith that Santa existed once.

Wrong. Correct, however, considering theories like evolution are thought up and then blown out of proportion, thrown out there as if an undeniable fact.

Please, for the sake of your credibility, do not tell me that you believe in creationism...

-Ripe

Actually he DID exist. Everyone agrees that he was a teacher 2,000 years ago accept you it seems. There are historical documents about his existance. Jews believe he lived and was a great man but NOT the son of God. He existed, the argument is whether or not he was the Son of God.

Actually he DID exist. Everyone agrees that he was a teacher 2,000 years ago accept you it seems. There are historical documents about his existance. Jews believe he lived and was a great man but NOT the son of God. He existed, the argument is whether or not he was the Son of God.

See my words above,

Why not just deny everything he's done? It makes more sense.

Which would include denying him being the Son of God.

And yes I believe in creationism, obviously, you'd be a moron to think I'm a christian and believed in evolution or something other than creationism.

I didn't read everyone elses posts, so yeah haha..

Theres no proof there is a Jesus. There is no proof that these miracles happened. Theres only a book about a bunch of guys who couldn't get laid, so they decided to make a book, which makes it a 'sin' for the to have sex, so that they have a reason to never be laid. Please, it's all common sense. I live my life by facts, not silly myths, because i've learnt that there are no miracles in life.

But for the sake of debating, lets say i was Catholic. Alright, so im Catholic, and i believe that Jesus died on the cross to free us from our sins. He also performed many miracles, which made him 'famous'. He said, "treat others as you would like to be treated", or some shit like that, but yeah! If i had magical Cleric healing powers, sure! I'd help people out!
Jesus' only purpose was to come down, spread the word of God, and to rid us from our sins. He didn't go through life in our shoes. He went through life by an agenda. He never had to work for his food. He never had to fight wars, or go to school and worry about the rest of your life; am i gonna pass? am i going to be successful? will i be able to provide for my family? Live in MY ****ing shoes, and then i'll come and tell you to ****ing 'treat others how you would like to be treated', because they don't treat ME how THEY would like to be treated! I'd like to see Jesus walk into an black alley at night and get surrounded by a bunch of guys in hoodies, get jumped, and then when i go to him, "hey buddy! Treat others how you would like to be treated :D!", and see what he says to me! He'll probubly be *****ing and complaining as much as me! Anyways, i don't know where im going with this, and i was randomly typing shit.. Im tried and really pissed, so don't mind me. I just had to take my mind off of depressions haunting my real life. Tootles.

I didn't read everyone elses posts, so yeah haha..

Theres no proof there is a Jesus. There is no proof that these miracles happened. Theres only a book about a bunch of guys who couldn't get laid, so they decided to make a book, which makes it a 'sin' for the to have sex, so that they have a reason to never be laid. Please, it's all common sense. I live my life by facts, not silly myths, because i've learnt that there are no miracles in life.

But for the sake of debating, lets say i was Catholic. Alright, so im Catholic, and i believe that Jesus died on the cross to free us from our sins. He also performed many miracles, which made him 'famous'. He said, "treat others as you would like to be treated", or some shit like that, but yeah! If i had magical Cleric healing powers, sure! I'd help people out!
Jesus' only purpose was to come down, spread the word of God, and to rid us from our sins. He didn't go through life in our shoes. He went through life by an agenda. He never had to work for his food. He never had to fight wars, or go to school and worry about the rest of your life; am i gonna pass? am i going to be successful? will i be able to provide for my family? Live in MY ****ing shoes, and then i'll come and tell you to ****ing 'treat others how you would like to be treated', because they don't treat ME how THEY would like to be treated! I'd like to see Jesus walk into an black alley at night and get surrounded by a bunch of guys in hoodies, get jumped, and then when i go to him, "hey buddy! Treat others how you would like to be treated :D!", and see what he says to me! He'll probubly be *****ing and complaining as much as me! Anyways, i don't know where im going with this, and i was randomly typing shit.. Im tried and really pissed, so don't mind me. I just had to take my mind off of depressions haunting my real life. Tootles.


Sorry Phantom, but you should have stopped before the last paragraph. lmfao.
Um, Jesus was persecuted, buddy, he did get "jumped". They treated Jesus completely the opposite of how he treated others. They humiliated him, tortured him, crucified him, etc. May I mention he didn't complain? And he did have to work for his food. You obviously don't know your history much. Life was much more harsh back then.

Would you rather live knowing you were gonna be tortured and crucified someday? or live wondering if you were gonna be successful and have a chance at making that happen?

Wow I actually missed that 2nd paragraph. Where the hell do you get off saying that? Sex isn't a sin. lol Adultery is sin, promiscuity is sin,.. Sex itself is not sin. And I think the men that contributed to writing the bible were married. I think if I couldn't get laid I'd write some fantasy novel about getting laid before I wrote a mind-blowing book like the Bible.

I didn't read everyone elses posts, so yeah haha..

Theres no proof there is a Jesus. There is no proof that these miracles happened. Theres only a book about a bunch of guys who couldn't get laid, so they decided to make a book, which makes it a 'sin' for the to have sex, so that they have a reason to never be laid. Please, it's all common sense. I live my life by facts, not silly myths, because i've learnt that there are no miracles in life.

But for the sake of debating, lets say i was Catholic. Alright, so im Catholic, and i believe that Jesus died on the cross to free us from our sins. He also performed many miracles, which made him 'famous'. He said, "treat others as you would like to be treated", or some shit like that, but yeah! If i had magical Cleric healing powers, sure! I'd help people out!
Jesus' only purpose was to come down, spread the word of God, and to rid us from our sins. He didn't go through life in our shoes. He went through life by an agenda. He never had to work for his food. He never had to fight wars, or go to school and worry about the rest of your life; am i gonna pass? am i going to be successful? will i be able to provide for my family? Live in MY ****ing shoes, and then i'll come and tell you to ****ing 'treat others how you would like to be treated', because they don't treat ME how THEY would like to be treated! I'd like to see Jesus walk into an black alley at night and get surrounded by a bunch of guys in hoodies, get jumped, and then when i go to him, "hey buddy! Treat others how you would like to be treated :D!", and see what he says to me! He'll probubly be *****ing and complaining as much as me! Anyways, i don't know where im going with this, and i was randomly typing shit.. Im tried and really pissed, so don't mind me. I just had to take my mind off of depressions haunting my real life. Tootles.

There is no proof that he didnt live and miracles happen everyday.
wtf are you talking about allies and shit? Its 2006 ALOT of things have changed since Jesus lived. "A book about a bunch of guys that couldnt get laid"? Are you talking about the bible if so you are VERY ignorant when it comes to the bible. Athiest are are not liked people at all and a athiest is what you are. So what do you live life by? Who is your "god"? facts? Um. or is it "Dimbags"?

You should watch "The Passion of Christ". You will see how Jesus was treated and what he did for us.

Prooving jesus exsists is one thing, prooving he was the son of god is another, you can't proove that. Unless maybe if you have alot of acid.

There is no proof that he didnt live and miracles happen everyday.
wtf are you talking about allies and shit? Its 2006 ALOT of things have changed since Jesus lived. "A book about a bunch of guys that couldnt get laid"? Are you talking about the bible if so you are VERY ignorant when it comes to the bible. Athiest are are not liked people at all and a athiest is what you are. So what do you live life by? Who is your "god"? facts? Um. or is it "Dimbags"?

You should watch "The Passion of Christ". You will see how Jesus was treated and what he did for us.

Don't lump all atheists into one category. I am an atheist, but I have read the bible cover to cover, but choose not to believe something written by the hand of man. People have a skewed vision of what atheism really is. My philosophy in life is that I choose my fate. Don't get me wrong, I won't shout from the roofs and denounce other religions. If other people choose to have faith in these various religions, then that is cool for them. Just don't try to force it on those that have a different opinion.

Don't lump all atheists into one category. I am an atheist, but I have read the bible cover to cover, but choose not to believe something written by the hand of man. People have a skewed vision of what atheism really is. My philosophy in life is that I choose my fate. Don't get me wrong, I won't shout from the roofs and denounce other religions. If other people choose to have faith in these various religions, then that is cool for them. Just don't try to force it on those that have a different opinion.

Not everyone is expected to become a believer after reading the bible.

Just don't assume someone posting about their faith on a forum is forcing their opinion on someone. :)

Not everyone is expected to become a believer after reading the bible.

Just don't assume someone posting about their faith on a forum is forcing their opinion on someone. :)

Thats not what I said, I just didn't like some uniformed person saying that atheists are idiots b/c we don't believe in god.

Just don't try to force it on those that have a different opinion.
Thats one of the things i dislike about athiests. Nobody is forceing a religion on anybody but athiest seem to protend that it is bein thrown at them.

But the main reason alot of people dont respect athiest is because they like to "spread the word" thats they are athiest and then ask "How do you know there is a god" and "why in the pledge of allegience it says "One nation under god" instead of of something else?" and also acted like there better then those who believe in god.

I was watching 30 Days and this female athiest was living with a christian family for 30 days. But in that episode the athiest daughter would say "under the goverment" instead of "Under god" in the pledge of allegience. Then she would complain the kids at school insulted her and beat her up. She would complain to her mother like she was better then everyone else at school because she "lived by facts" and not by the rules of god.

I was watching 30 Days and this female athiest was living with a christian family for 30 days. But in that episode the athiest daughter would say "under the goverment" instead of "Under god" in the pledge of allegience. Then she would complain the kids at school insulted her and beat her up. She would complain to her mother like she was better then everyone else at school because she "lived by facts" and not by the rules of god.

So you're saying that since she believed something that was different than everyone else, she deserved to be beaten

So you're saying that since she believed something that was different than everyone else, she deserved to be beaten
No thats not what im saying.
Its hard to explain something like what im trying to explain by typing.
The girl was stuck up. She acted like she was better then those who believed in god but then she would complain when she was beaten up.

So you're saying that since she believed something that was different than everyone else, she deserved to be beaten

Sounds similar to what happened to Jesus except to a much less degree. I don't think that sounds right at all. Do you think it's right that a person should call someone a moron even if they deny natural evidences and dwell in their faith instead? Do you think it's right when people are killed for their faith?

I think it's a shame that not everyone can have faith in God but that's like someone wishing for world peace. It just won't happen.

Sounds similar to what happened to Jesus except to a much less degree. I don't think that sounds right at all. Do you think it's right that a person should call someone a moron even if they deny natural evidences and dwell in their faith instead? Do you think it's right when people are killed for their faith?

I think it's a shame that not everyone can have faith in God but that's like someone wishing for world peace. It just won't happen.

thats called forcing your religion on others
i could understand if an atheist got pissed after reading this

No thats not what im saying.
Its hard to explain something like what im trying to explain by typing.
The girl was stuck up. She acted like she was better then those who believed in god but then she would complain when she was beaten up.

That proves my point, I'm just saying that, just like with organized religions, people seem to judge the character of one for the whole faith. So, ok, if the girl was stuck up beat her *** for that. But people assume that all atheists are like that. Not all of us actually speak of our beliefs on a regular basis. Most of us think that if you believe in God or Allah or whoever, then thats cool for you. I just speak up when people try to stereotype all atheists as ignorant.

That proves my point, I'm just saying that, just like with organized religions, people seem to judge the character of one for the whole faith. So, ok, if the girl was stuck up beat her *** for that. But people assume that all atheists are like that. Not all of us actually speak of our beliefs on a regular basis. Most of us think that if you believe in God or Allah or whoever, then thats cool for you. I just speak up when people try to stereotype all atheists as ignorant.

the same can be said vice versa

thats called forcing your religion on others
i could understand if an atheist got pissed after reading this

wtf are you getting at? lmfao

Forcing your religion on others is persecuting them for disbelief until they give in and a number of other scenarios.

My scenario was just me stating a belief of mine. If anything I was being concerned/caring. Take it as an offense if you want. -_-

I don't think what Arucard said was insulting to atheists. Its not like he's actually saying "all atheists are going to hell." He's just standing up for his own beliefs.

Taken from www.ourcatholicfaith.org ---

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church—which is, of course, quite a different thing. These millions can hardly be blamed for hating Catholics because Catholics “adore statues;” because they “put the Blessed Mother on the same level with God;” because they “say indulgence is a permission to commit sin;” because the Pope “is a Fascist;” because the Church “is the defender of Capitalism.” If the Church taught or believed any one of these things, it should be hated, but the fact is that the Church does not believe nor teach any one of them. It follows then that the hatred of the millions is directed against error and not against truth. As a matter of fact, if we Catholics believed all of the untruths and lies which were said against the Church, we probably would hate the Church a thousand times more than they do.



If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hates. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world, as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church which is accused of being behind the times, as Our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because he called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which amid the confusion of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly, it is other-worldly. Since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. ... the Catholic Church is the only Church existing today which goes back to the time of Christ. History is so very clear on this point, it is curious how many miss its obviousness..."



Bishop Fulton Sheen

-- This reinforced my beleif in the Catholic faith. I stated in other posts that I really did not beleive in my faith, but studying up on my faith really opened my eyes. If everybody could just stick to their relegion and stop trying to "debunk" others, the world would be a better place. I suppose just as someone stated earlier, its like asking for world peace.
*I realize the person who wrote that was strongly trying to convert near the end. That is the only part of his arguement that I really don't agree with. I'm talking about the person who wrote about the Catholic faith, not anyone here.*
*Also, I've only recently started to look up my faith. I really don't know much about my faith, I'm only going on what I read.*

I myself am a Catholic, but I also have an atheist side of things. I believe that a god does exist but at the same time feel that the being could be anyone, an energy, an anything. I don't however.. go to church, but I do follow the traditions of my Catholic Religion, I respect the pope as a person who takes his time to stand behind the altar infront of thousands of people. I am open minded to other religions, I try not to be closed-minded about the different kinds of religions that are out in the world. Such as Buddhism, Jewish, (Forgot the word, its 2 am in the morning >_> ) Christian, uhhh... well mostly everything. The one thing I would never do is try to force my beliefs on someone.. I think that its wrong and no-one should ever do that to someone.

Thats all, I'm tired.. I hope you all have a nice sleep. :3
If there are any opinions, I'd gladly accept them.

Actually he DID exist. Everyone agrees that he was a teacher 2,000 years ago accept you it seems. There are historical documents about his existance. Jews believe he lived and was a great man but NOT the son of God. He existed, the argument is whether or not he was the Son of God.

No, Saint, you're wrong. You're getting really, very confused, and I pity you.

There are events in history, stories and events, that you CHOOSE to believe were the work of Jesus and point to his existence. It's not a fact, a proven fact, that he existed, otherwise it would be an undeniable truth, which it isn't. That's the first law of fact Vs opinion, champ.

Lots of people agreeing doesn't mean anything. 2,000 years worth of opinions and faith are still opinions and faith. They're no closer to fact now, are they? No.

Secondly, to argue if he was the son of God is to assume both A) He existed and B) So does God.

I have no proof of either, but that doesn't mean I'm denying it. It just means I'm not blindly accepting it. I accept your right to religion, but please don't force your deity-worship on me.

See my words above,

Why not just deny everything he's done? It makes more sense.

Which would include denying him being the Son of God.

And yes I believe in creationism, obviously, you'd be a moron to think I'm a christian and believed in evolution or something other than creationism.

"Everything he's done."? You mean everything you believe that he's done, everything you have faith in, everything you've decided to believe he did.

There is no proof that he existed, none whatsoever. That is a fact, Arucard. A stone cold, undeniable fact. There is no proof that Jesus existed, otherwise his existence would be factual, and it's not...is it? There are historical events that you have chosen to believe were the work of Jesus, no proof that he did it.

Also, you believe in creationism? Hahaha, SMASH! What's that? Your credibility flying out the window.

To quote Bill Hicks: "You ever notice that people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. 'Ahh believe Gawd created me in one day!'. Yeah, it looks like he rushed it.".

See, my "faith" extends to the idea that in all humans will never know, it's more realistic to say there MIGHT be SOMETHING, than to say there's nothing at all. That's as far as my faith goes. Your kind goes to "Yeah, God did it all in a day. Everything.". Ridiculous.

To quote another comedian: "There's this book called The Bible, it basically tells us that Darwin was wrong; we didn't evolve, God made us. Let me read a passage. This is the first book of Moses, commonly called Genesis. 'In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth...', it doesn't go into much detail or proof. Just God's word, you know? 'Trust me, I did it.'.".

The funny thing is, you Christians/Catholics call athiests idiots because they take everything at face value, but that's nowhere near as dumb as some of the Christian arguments I've heard.

"God put dinosaur fossils here to test our faith.". You better be thankful that "God" would forgive you for your sins, because idiocy, stupidity and banality are sins that rank pretty high on my list.

If God is forgiving people like that, then shit, anybody could get into Heaven.

miracles happen everyday.

No, events do. Events that you view as miracles, purely because as Christians draw further along their lifetime, they start often questioning their faith. So every coincidence, every event, they view it as a miracle because they have begun looking through faithless eyes and don't like what they see.

"I PRAYED FOR A CAR! THEN I GOT ONE!", that's not a miracle.

"My father had cancer, and it went away! MIRACLE!", no, diseases go into remission all the time without detection.

There's an explanation for every "miracle" you can come up with, regardless of if people are aware of it.

You should watch "The Passion of Christ". You will see how Jesus was treated and what he did for us.

Did you just refer to the reactionary Catholic bigot, Mel Gibson, as a credible source?

Not only does he adhere to the doctrine of the old testament, but he's a nutjob.

The fact is, as much as Christians and Catholics preach tolerance, all it takes is a slight hint that you don't believe in Jesus and they're all over you, trying to prove it.

I got warned for flaming, by Saint, because I made a joke...A JOKE...about not being able to get over the death of Jesus, once. That's not tolerance, that's oppression, and you give good, honest, mind-their-own-business Christians/Catholics a bad name. I made a comment about God/Jesus and Arucard damn near had to restrain himself.

I'm not gonna jump all over you for being Christian, I would campaign for your right to it, if necessary, because I believe in that. I just think that in 2006, your kind need to afford a little more ****ing respect to those who don't share your views. Don't just say you do, act it, live it.

Just not lest ye be judged? Heard of that? Try compassion, not condemnation.

I accept your faith, you need to accept your faith. Accept that is IS faith, there is no proof of anything you believe in, hence why it's called a faith.

-Ripe

There is no evidence to prove they don't exist, nor is there evidence to prove they exist.

{edit} By "they", i mean god/s of your faith.

There is no evidence to prove they don't exist, nor is there evidence to prove they exist.

This is what I've been saying for the past...however many pages.

-Ripe

There are events in history, stories and events, that you CHOOSE to believe were the work of Jesus and point to his existence. It's not a fact, a proven fact, that he existed, otherwise it would be an undeniable truth, which it isn't. That's the first law of fact Vs opinion, champ.

You either say he did or didn't. Don't try to come off as some medium so you're right either way. "Well I said he might not have existed, now they say they have evidence that he didn't exist so I was right all along." "well, I said he MIGHT have, now they say there is evidence he did exist so I was right all along." Make up your mind. You don't believe in something by saying it could be either way. I'm wouldn't be a Christian to say Jesus Christ didn't exist. And if I was a Christian why would I even say he might not have existed. That's doubting the Bible. I'd be a moron to be a believer but... not? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that he MIGHT, MIIIIIGHT not have existed. But there's so many other figures that you'd have to shun as possibility of not existing or existing as well.

"Greco-Roman historian Michael Grant, who certainly has no theological axe to grind, indicates that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for a large number of famous pagan personages - yet no one would dare to argue their non-existence. Meier [Meie.MarJ, 23] notes that what we know about Alexander the Great could fit on only a few sheets of paper; yet no one doubts that Alexander existed. Charlesworth has written that "Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E." [Chars.JesJud, 168-9] Sanders [Sand.HistF, xiv] echoes Grant, saying that "We know a lot about Jesus, vastly more than about John the Baptist, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, or any of the other figures whose names we have from approximately the same date and place." On the Crucifixion, Harvey writes: "It would be no exaggeration to say that this event is better attested, and supported by a more impressive array of evidence, than any other event of comparable importance of which we have knowledge from the ancient world.""

Lots of people agreeing doesn't mean anything. 2,000 years worth of opinions and faith are still opinions and faith. They're no closer to fact now, are they? No.

You're right about alot of people agreeing doesn't mean it's true.

I have no proof of either, but that doesn't mean I'm denying it. It just means I'm not blindly accepting it. I accept your right to religion, but please don't force your deity-worship on me.

Even if you believe Jesus existed doesn't mean you'd be a believer of Christianity.

"Everything he's done."? You mean everything you believe that he's done, everything you have faith in, everything you've decided to believe he did.

Everything he's done. XD

There is no proof that he existed, none whatsoever. That is a fact, Arucard. A stone cold, undeniable fact. There is no proof that Jesus existed, otherwise his existence would be factual, and it's not...is it? There are historical events that you have chosen to believe were the work of Jesus, no proof that he did it.

There is proof, you just don't find it substantial enough to persuade you. You are just in total denial, dude. His existance is accepted, not just by the church.

Also, you believe in creationism? Hahaha, SMASH! What's that? Your credibility flying out the window.

Haha very funny.

To quote Bill Hicks: "You ever notice that people who believe in creationism look really unevolved? Eyebrow ridges, big furry hands and feet. 'Ahh believe Gawd created me in one day!'. Yeah, it looks like he rushed it.".

Oh no, haha funny. Not.

See, my "faith" extends to the idea that in all humans will never know, it's more realistic to say there MIGHT be SOMETHING, than to say there's nothing at all. That's as far as my faith goes. Your kind goes to "Yeah, God did it all in a day. Everything.". Ridiculous.

You're so scared of going towards belief or disbelief.

To quote another comedian: "There's this book called The Bible, it basically tells us that Darwin was wrong; we didn't evolve, God made us. Let me read a passage. This is the first book of Moses, commonly called Genesis. 'In the beginning, God created the Heaven and the Earth...', it doesn't go into much detail or proof. Just God's word, you know? 'Trust me, I did it.'.".

Another knee-slapper you have there. Actually that comedian is wrong, Darwin's book was an attempt at telling us the Bible is wrong.

The funny thing is, you Christians/Catholics call athiests idiots because they take everything at face value, but that's nowhere near as dumb as some of the Christian arguments I've heard.

I think they are idiots when they constantly attempt to disprove the Bible.

If God is forgiving people like that, then shit, anybody could get into Heaven.

Everyone CAN get into heaven but not everyone is MEANT to.

No, events do. Events that you view as miracles, purely because as Christians draw further along their lifetime, they start often questioning their faith. So every coincidence, every event, they view it as a miracle because they have begun looking through faithless eyes and don't like what they see.

lol I don't think he's talking about those miracles. He's talking about medical miracles and whatnot.

"I PRAYED FOR A CAR! THEN I GOT ONE!", that's not a miracle.

heh I know I don't believe getting a car is a miracle. That would be a figure of speech I believe. "I won't be able to get a car until next year " 2 days later "omg I got a car".. "It's a miracle" Figure of speech.

"My father had cancer, and it went away! MIRACLE!", no, diseases go into remission all the time without detection.

Yeah, so? "He" would have been blessed to still be alive. I mean come on, life is pointless, this is it, so why does it matter if he lives on when he had cancer. Why not just die?

There's an explanation for every "miracle" you can come up with, regardless of if people are aware of it.

Maybe. But most of the explanations are pretty random and such as medical "miracles" why does it happen to some people? Why not just everyone die from the disease?

The fact is, as much as Christians and Catholics preach tolerance, all it takes is a slight hint that you don't believe in Jesus and they're all over you, trying to prove it.

That's somewhat true, but I don't care if I had a friend that was atheist, buddhist, hindu, whatever. Would it be nicer if they were christian? Yes because then there's more in common that we can share.

I got warned for flaming, by Saint, because I made a joke...A JOKE...about not being able to get over the death of Jesus, once. That's not tolerance, that's oppression, and you give good, honest, mind-their-own-business Christians/Catholics a bad name. I made a comment about God/Jesus and Arucard damn near had to restrain himself.

Lol Yeah, but I did restrain myself if I'm thinking of the right time.

I'm not gonna jump all over you for being Christian, I would campaign for your right to it, if necessary, because I believe in that. I just think that in 2006, your kind need to afford a little more ****ing respect to those who don't share your views. Don't just say you do, act it, live it.

Definately.

Just not lest ye be judged? Heard of that? Try compassion, not condemnation.

I'm not condemning anyone -_- At least I'm not meaning to seem like I am at all.

I accept your faith, you need to accept your faith. Accept that is IS faith, there is no proof of anything you believe in, hence why it's called a faith.

I understand it is faith. Honestly, I'd rather live with faith than it being a fact. Which it is a fact in my heart and soul. But I mean an undeniable fact that is presented to everyone.

Shit...

I'd hate to say this but I down right don't give two shits about religion. I remain completely uninvolved.

I came back to see how this three post thread exploded into five pages.

It shouldn't be an arguement or some bullshit like that. If I sin damnit let me sin, if you sin I don't give a shit. Whether Jesus did or did not exist no one should REALLY care. And further more... I'm going to have to say 'Moses' 'Jesus' All these names? I desire to see someone else with a name as whacked out as these. <--- Note, that's some what of a joke, not meant to be taken seriously sept the fact of the matter is, no one else has these names. And probably more in the 'religious history'.

And seriously... if you can find someone who has the name "Jesus" Not 'Hay-sues' but the actually pronunciation 'Jeeze Us' TELL ME... Same with Moses...

Of course I will state this again, I remain uninvolved my opinions and crap don't matter the slightest bit.

Shit...

I'd hate to say this but I down right don't give two shits about religion. I remain completely uninvolved.

I came back to see how this three post thread exploded into five pages.

It shouldn't be an arguement or some bullshit like that. If I sin damnit let me sin, if you sin I don't give a shit. Whether Jesus did or did not exist no one should REALLY care. And further more... I'm going to have to say 'Moses' 'Jesus' All these names? I desire to see someone else with a name as whacked out as these. <--- Note, that's some what of a joke, not meant to be taken seriously sept the fact of the matter is, no one else has these names. And probably more in the 'religious history'.

And seriously... if you can find someone who has the name "Jesus" Not 'Hay-sues' but the actually pronunciation 'Jeeze Us' TELL ME... Same with Moses...

Of course I will state this again, I remain uninvolved my opinions and crap don't matter the slightest bit.

Uh.. "Whether Jesus did or did not exist no one should REALLY care." That doesn't sound uninvolved. Not once did I say you can't be atheist/agnostic, but here you go telling me I shouldn't really care.

About the names, what are you talking about? That's completely mindless. lol

jesus was a false prophet


Allāhu Akbar muhammed jihad dirka dirka




http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ddc1/awjeez.jpg


lol

just... lol

Its like when everyone thinks about something, its posted here, regardless if its a repeat or not, didn't all they other get lock btw? Oh well, i think about alot of things aswell.....(dont even say Hinata....just dont.....)

Uh.. "Whether Jesus did or did not exist no one should REALLY care." That doesn't sound uninvolved. Not once did I say you can't be atheist/agnostic, but here you go telling me I shouldn't really care.

About the names, what are you talking about? That's completely mindless. lol

Reread the sentance carefully. 'Whether Jesus did or did not exist no on should REALLY care.' Meaning it's pointless to argue whether or not he existed or not.

You either say he did or didn't. Don't try to come off as some medium so you're right either way. "Well I said he might not have existed, now they say they have evidence that he didn't exist so I was right all along." "well, I said he MIGHT have, now they say there is evidence he did exist so I was right all along." Make up your mind.

How dare you tell me what I believe? You over-zealous moron.

What is this? You do believe or you don't? Bullshit. There is no proof to say he existed, NONE. No convincing proof, for me, that he did exist. There's nothing that factually proves.

That said, there's nothing that proves the opposite. I don't care whether he did or didn't exist, so why should I throw myself either side? To please you? **** that. You preach to be tolerant, but you're nothing more than a closet bible thumper.

You don't believe in something by saying it could be either way. I'm wouldn't be a Christian to say Jesus Christ didn't exist. And if I was a Christian why would I even say he might not have existed. That's doubting the Bible. I'd be a moron to be a believer but... not? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that he MIGHT, MIIIIIGHT not have existed. But there's so many other figures that you'd have to shun as possibility of not existing or existing as well.

What the hell are you on about? I'm not telling you not to believe in him, I'm saying that neither of us can prove anything, so why argue about it? You choose to place your faith in your religion, and that is fine with me. As silly an idea as I believe Catholicism to be, I respect and defend your right to it. What YOU need to do, you bigot, is respect that yes, there is grey area. Not everything is black and white.

I don't have to believe in Jesus, I don't have to say he didn't exist. I don't know, nor do I care.

"Greco-Roman historian Michael Grant, who certainly has no theological axe to grind, indicates that there is more evidence for the existence of Jesus than there is for a large number of famous pagan personages - yet no one would dare to argue their non-existence. Meier [Meie.MarJ, 23] notes that what we know about Alexander the Great could fit on only a few sheets of paper; yet no one doubts that Alexander existed. Charlesworth has written that "Jesus did exist; and we know more about him than about almost any Palestinian Jew before 70 C.E." [Chars.JesJud, 168-9] Sanders [Sand.HistF, xiv] echoes Grant, saying that "We know a lot about Jesus, vastly more than about John the Baptist, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, or any of the other figures whose names we have from approximately the same date and place." On the Crucifixion, Harvey writes: "It would be no exaggeration to say that this event is better attested, and supported by a more impressive array of evidence, than any other event of comparable importance of which we have knowledge from the ancient world.""

Michael Grant is a hack, for one thing.

Second, nothing there proves the existence of Jesus more so than anything else. He's simply just saying there is, he's not proving anything. There's not proof because he exists as a character born of fiction. Nobody alive has ever had interaction with Jesus, nobody for thousands of years would have, if he DID exist. So even if he did exist, which he may not have, nobody is to say he definitely performed miracles. It could be just ages worth of Chinese whispers.

Either way, evidence equates to proof, proof equates to factual and proveable conclusions, right? Has the existence of Jesus been factually proven? No. So what does that tell you about the evidence? That it's someone having faith, again.

You're right about alot of people agreeing doesn't mean it's true.

I know.

Even if you believe Jesus existed doesn't mean you'd be a believer of Christianity.

I know that, what's your point? I've said to you that I don't know if he existed or not, I honestly don't. NOBODY does. Why are you acting as if I've taken some radical, taboo stance? I'm simply speaking the truth. Jesus's existence isn't proveable. You will never, ever know, nor will I. The difference is, you're living your life dedicated to the man and his religion. I have the luxury of keeping an open mind, saying: "Maybe he did, maybe he didn't." and continuing with my life, free of the thought or worry.

Everything he's done. XD

Stop implying that the man factually existed. You don't know that he did, you've been shown things and told things that lead you to believe he did such acts. You've not got any proof.

I can say "Hitler carried out the holocaust.", I can then prove that. You can't prove Jesus did such things.

There is proof, you just don't find it substantial enough to persuade you. You are just in total denial, dude. His existance is accepted, not just by the church.

Why are you being dumb?

I don't find it substantial enough? You're damn right I don't. That's precisely right, Arucard. I'm not saying he didn't or did exist, but I'm saying nobody can raise any proof, any OBJECTIVE proof that he did exist.

You have admitted that his existence can never be factually proven, so therefore you must accept that Jesus's existence is 100% subjective, because it is.

Typical Catholic cop out debate. "YOU'RE JUST....YOU'RE JUST IGNORING ALL THE EVIDENCE! WE ALL SEE IT! YOU'RE BEING IGNORANT!". No, you're being too accepting. You can't prove he exists, fact. FACT. I have fact on my side.

It's not an undeniable truth that he existed, it IS an undeniable truth that you can't prove anything.

You're so scared of going towards belief or disbelief.

I'm not, I just realise that I get one life and it could end at any time. So whilst I wonder and find myself in constant amazement of all that could, might, and probably does exist in the infinite space, I'm not quite ready (sarcasm) to hand my life over to God, Jesus or any other religion, people no better than you or I that would have us lead our lives a certain way, our ONLY lives, for what? I need proof if you want me to do such a thing, and I have none.

This doesn't mean I'm rubbishing your religion and saying it's fake, I don't know or care if God exists. I live my life for me and those I love. If he exists, great, if he doesn't, great. I don't worship him now, I wouldn't worship him if I found out he existed, but I'd accept his existence.

As of right now, neither God NOR Jesus can be proven to exist anywhere but inside your minds.

Another knee-slapper you have there. Actually that comedian is wrong, Darwin's book was an attempt at telling us the Bible is wrong.

Sorry, I should have realised that the comedy quote was a bit too high above you.

That was the joke, the fact that he was putting across the ridiculousness of creationism. You're what, 16-17? You'll get the joke when you hit 20 or so.

I think they are idiots when they constantly attempt to disprove the Bible.

Funny, because I think idiots are those who constantly try to prove the Bible, despite it being as futile as trying to disprove it.

One side spends their life trying to oppressively prove an ancient text of stories, the other spends their time trying to disprove the stories. What a waste of life on Earth.

Everyone CAN get into heaven but not everyone is MEANT to.

The idea of all religion, more or less, is unconditional love for one and all, that we are allegedly God's children and he loves us, without exception.

That's the message of religion. The problem is, people, as they have a habit of doing, took that too far, and started manipulating people. So now we have Republicans and fundamentalists etc. It's not about who believes in what.

If you were a true Christian, you'd leave everyone to do and believe as they wish, safe in the knowledge that the god you believe in will forgive them for whatever sins they commit, and love them regardless. Not go around poking your idiotic nose in and saying "THERE'S PROOF! GAYS SHOULDN'T MARRY!" and shit like that.

lol I don't think he's talking about those miracles. He's talking about medical miracles and whatnot.

Yeah, it's bs. My uncle has a medical degree and he says that he finds it rather sickening that him and many others around the world have worked hard to heal, help and care for people, but after they do, people give the glory to God. That's straight up disrespectful. God didn't study for multiple years and earn knowledge to be able to save your life, that doctor did.

Idiots call them miracles, but they're not. Diseases go into remission. People say: "OH MY GOD HE SURVIVED THAT CAR CRASH! MIRACLE!", no, it's simple. The crash just didn't do enough damage to kill him. The chances of him surviving may have been small, but they were still there, and they are the reason he survived. Christians and Catholics alike always look over the logical explanations in favour of giving credit to their lord. Why? Because they are scared. They're scared that they still haven't witnessed any miracles, so they decide what the miracles are.

heh I know I don't believe getting a car is a miracle. That would be a figure of speech I believe. "I won't be able to get a car until next year " 2 days later "omg I got a car".. "It's a miracle" Figure of speech.

Some people do actually believe these things are blessings from God. They give God credit for simple coincidence.

Yeah, so? "He" would have been blessed to still be alive. I mean come on, life is pointless, this is it, so why does it matter if he lives on when he had cancer. Why not just die?

No, he survived because the cancer went into remission of it's own accord, fact. There's no blessing, it's science, scientific fact. Diseases go into remission.

My Aunt claimed it was a miracle when my Uncle came back from cancer. The chances of him surviving were small, but the cancer went into remission. She gave God the glory, but the results and tests show that it actually did it on it's own. There's the proof. Stop being so ignorant and giving an unproven deity credit for a hard human's work.

If God does exist, that's not what he wants. He would want us to get along and rejoice in the fact that we have the ability to learn how to heal each other as his ALLEGED Son would have. Not sit in Heaven going: "Yeaaaah, baby. All me, alllll me.".

Maybe. But most of the explanations are pretty random and such as medical "miracles" why does it happen to some people? Why not just everyone die from the disease?

Because there's many medications, many treatments, many natural occurances that beat diseases.

Ironically, many Christians I've debated with were always afraid of science. I'm sure that's not because they didn't want things proven wrong...or...hmm.

That's somewhat true, but I don't care if I had a friend that was atheist, buddhist, hindu, whatever. Would it be nicer if they were christian? Yes because then there's more in common that we can share.

That is a pathetic thing to say. Hitler thought the world would be nicer if everyone had blonde hair and blue eyes. Your thought process is no different from his, you fascist.

"My friends would be better if they shared my religion.". You are such a self-righteous child. You are the problem with this world, you and people like you. Nothing but armchair oppressors who simply dislike the tag that you deserve.

Talk about insecurities, though! Man! You are so insecure in your religion that you need other Christians around you so you can all talk about it? I know a devout Christian, she's one of my closest friends, but she never feels the need to talk about it, because she's comfortable in her beliefs.

Lol Yeah, but I did restrain myself if I'm thinking of the right time.

Why did you even need to restrain yourself? Why should you care who does and who doesn't believe in Jesus? You believe he does, so what does my opinion matter? I couldn't give a **** less what you think about my beliefs, because they're mine. Nobody has to live by them but me.

I'm not condemning anyone -_- At least I'm not meaning to seem like I am at all.

Dude, you just said that your friends would be better if they ****ing prayed to the same God as you.

What's up with that? If you believe in God, God obviously gave them the freedom to believe or not. If God exists, he doesn't exist to be a babysitter, he doesn't exist to make us do things how he wishes. That's why the argument: "WHY DOESN'T HE INTERVENE!?" is dumb, because that wouldn't be his purpose.

However, if he does exist, he gave humans free will. Free will to love, fight, hate, kill, act, curse, ***** laugh, everything. Believe in whatever we wish to believe in.

I don't have any problem with the idea of God, of Jesus, of Allah etc. It's their fanclubs that I hate.

It's like some bands. The band themselves are great, but their fans give off a negative view of them, because they act in a way that the band didn't intend. Tool, for example, have started to dislike a bulk of their own fanbase. Because a lot of Tool fans are so ****ing stuck up and pretentious, that it gives everyone else a horrid view of the band and honest fans, like me, a bad name.

Do you see what I'm saying? If Christians, on the whole, weren't so ****ing oppressive, there would be less nasty athiests. The more you push, the more they want to push back because they don't like being pushed. As I said, I was warned (By a guy who believe's Jesus's existence is factual no less) because I made a joke about Jesus, it was classed as flaming. I can see no reason for that, other than he was pissed that I made a joke about it. It wasn't aimed at anybody, it wasn't flaming. It's getting to the point where people who have power anywhere are using that power to act in ways that include their religion. You can abuse presidency because of God, just like you shouldn't be warning people because they made a joke about Jesus. By doing that, you're DEFYING the most critical "God given" trait of them all, free will.

If they say "God doesn't exist.", all you've got to say is "I believe he does.". End. Nobody is saying a discussion hurt anybody, but pushing only lasts for so long. The more you push, the more you'll be pushed back, and sooner or later one side will lose their temper, and that's why we have a borderlined ****ing holy war in the Middle East.

Regardless of what ANYONE believes in this thread, I think we can agree; Religion isn't mean to get anybody killed, and that is what it's doing. It's oppressing people every day. Who, in turn, oppress back. It's getting us nowhere as a race.

If you take away anything from this, I hope it's the fact that I respect your right to religion and your right to believe in it, just as you should, by this point, respect that religion is your opinion and I have the right to not accept it for myself (which doesn't mean I don't believe). Regardless of heated debates, you'll go away and live how you want, just as I will. That's how it should be. It should be no more than words and talking. People all too often try to ban gay marriage or say "This religion is the true faith!" etc. Pick a way of life and live it, that's all you have to do.

I understand it is faith. Honestly, I'd rather live with faith than it being a fact. Which it is a fact in my heart and soul. But I mean an undeniable fact that is presented to everyone.

It's never a fact unless it's proveable. There's no such thing as personal facts.

-Ripe

Its like when everyone thinks about something, its posted here, regardless if its a repeat or not, didn't all they other get lock btw? Oh well, i think about alot of things aswell.....(dont even say Hinata....just dont.....)

This isn't the same as the other threads, it's religion, yes, but this is the only thread I've been in or have seen discuss Jesus' existance.

Why is everyone so mindless about this type of discussion? It's like the end of the world if you talk about religion, it's the epitome of evil and you'd rather rip your eyes out or stab your ears with a pencil than read or listen to it. I'm not saying you have to at all. I just don't understand why everyone is so FRIGHTENED by the discussion of religion. I have just as much right to talk about it as you have the right to say "WTF QUIT TALKING ABOUT RELIGION." or posting pictures that says "Not this shit again" just because it has to do with religion. All those other topics are so much worse, just purely for post counts. Forums are for discussions. I'll go post a thread right now asking what is the last tv show everyone watched? Oh that's sooo much better than discussing religion which is VERY important to people and it happens to be important to me. /rant

This isn't the same as the other threads, it's religion, yes, but this is the only thread I've been in or have seen discuss Jesus' existance.

Why is everyone so mindless about this type of discussion? It's like the end of the world if you talk about religion, it's the epitome of evil and you'd rather rip your eyes out or stab your ears with a pencil than read or listen to it. I'm not saying you have to at all. I just don't understand why everyone is so FRIGHTENED by the discussion of religion. I have just as much right to talk about it as you have the right to say "WTF QUIT TALKING ABOUT RELIGION." or posting pictures that says "Not this shit again" just because it has to do with religion. All those other topics are so much worse, just purely for post counts. Forums are for discussions. I'll go post a thread right now asking what is the last tv show everyone watched? Oh that's sooo much better than discussing religion which is VERY important to people and it happens to be important to me. /rant

If you were thinking about Jesus one night thats great!, but its not the best thread based disscusion....

Arucard, as much as I think some of your views are moderately to highly retarded, I do feel sorry for you, because all you want to do is generally discuss religion sometimes. I don't believe this is the best place for that, and I believe we should save the rest of our debate for an actual religion thread.

You don't have a MASSIVELY oppressive attitude, you're not homophobic etc. There is a time and a place, but I think the problem is that the flaming rule here is ridiculous. If you make a post that offends someone, in any way, it's flaming.

-Ripe

This isn't the same as the other threads, it's religion, yes, but this is the only thread I've been in or have seen discuss Jesus' existance.

Why is everyone so mindless about this type of discussion? It's like the end of the world if you talk about religion, it's the epitome of evil and you'd rather rip your eyes out or stab your ears with a pencil than read or listen to it. I'm not saying you have to at all. I just don't understand why everyone is so FRIGHTENED by the discussion of religion. I have just as much right to talk about it as you have the right to say "WTF QUIT TALKING ABOUT RELIGION." or posting pictures that says "Not this shit again" just because it has to do with religion. All those other topics are so much worse, just purely for post counts. Forums are for discussions. I'll go post a thread right now asking what is the last tv show everyone watched? Oh that's sooo much better than discussing religion which is VERY important to people and it happens to be important to me. /rant


Topics about religion in general lead to turmoil and fights neither side can agree and in turn begins mudslinging.... Alot of people are well aware of how topics relating to religion, jesus, god etc end up and many including myself like to avoid the mess it makes. -_-


Edit: Btw Ripe I do enjoy reading what you post and this is fact. =)

"It is better to have faith- and be wrong, then have no faith and be wrong"

"It is better to have faith- and be wrong, then have no faith and be wrong"

So...it's better to really believe in something, with nothing backing you up but faith...and be wrong, than it is to not have faith and still be "wrong"?

I'm sorry, I fail to see how that makes any sense. It seems to be derived from the "If you try and fail, at least you tried." adage, but...no, no sense there.

This also brings about the question of; Can one ever truly be wrong if they don't care enough to have a belief anyway?

-Ripe

How dare you tell me what I believe? You over-zealous moron.

What is this? You do believe or you don't? Bullshit. There is no proof to say he existed, NONE. No convincing proof, for me, that he did exist. There's nothing that factually proves.

"NO CONVINCING PROOF, FOR ME, THAT HE DID EXIST." End of story.

That said, there's nothing that proves the opposite. I don't care whether he did or didn't exist, so why should I throw myself either side? To please you? **** that. You preach to be tolerant, but you're nothing more than a closet bible thumper.

Bullshit. Don't throw yourself on either side then, but don't go around saying "OMFG SHUT UP YOU DONT KNOW IF HE EXISTED OR NOT"

What the hell are you on about? I'm not telling you not to believe in him, I'm saying that neither of us can prove anything, so why argue about it? You choose to place your faith in your religion, and that is fine with me. As silly an idea as I believe Catholicism to be, I respect and defend your right to it. What YOU need to do, you bigot, is respect that yes, there is grey area. Not everything is black and white.

Just because I'm christian doesn't mean I'm catholic, dude. I'm not catholic.

I don't have to believe in Jesus, I don't have to say he didn't exist. I don't know, nor do I care.

No you don't. And I don't have much say in telling you to deny it but what is your reason in telling someone not to say Jesus existed. Does it physically harm you? Is it

Michael Grant is a hack, for one thing.

So typical coming from someone of your mindset.

Second, nothing there proves the existence of Jesus more so than anything else. He's simply just saying there is, he's not proving anything. There's not proof because he exists as a character born of fiction. Nobody alive has ever had interaction with Jesus, nobody for thousands of years would have, if he DID exist. So even if he did exist, which he may not have, nobody is to say he definitely performed miracles. It could be just ages worth of Chinese whispers.

THAT WASNT MY POOOINT. My point was that if you deny Jesus then deny all the other historical figures that have even less documentation or only written documentation period.

Either way, evidence equates to proof, proof equates to factual and proveable conclusions, right? Has the existence of Jesus been factually proven? No. So what does that tell you about the evidence? That it's someone having faith, again.

-_- WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU WANT? VIDEO DOCUMENTATION?!


I know that, what's your point? I've said to you that I don't know if he existed or not, I honestly don't. NOBODY does. Why are you acting as if I've taken some radical, taboo stance? I'm simply speaking the truth. Jesus's existence isn't proveable. You will never, ever know, nor will I. The difference is, you're living your life dedicated to the man and his religion. I have the luxury of keeping an open mind, saying: "Maybe he did, maybe he didn't." and continuing with my life, free of the thought or worry.

So, if you don't know if he existed or not then why would you defend the thought that he might have existed if you say there's absolutely NO proof.
You're so wrong, I'm not worried whether he existed or not because I know.

Stop implying that the man factually existed. You don't know that he did, you've been shown things and told things that lead you to believe he did such acts. You've not got any proof.

Whatever. Again and again I have to tell you there are so many historical figures that had less documentation than Jesus and they are still recorded in textbooks as being an actual person in history. SO WHY THE HELL DO YOU NOT COMPLAIN TO THEM?

I can say "Hitler carried out the holocaust.", I can then prove that. You can't prove Jesus did such things.

Hitler, hitler was around in time of video recording. So stop dragging that around. That's such a horrible representation.

You have admitted that his existence can never be factually proven, so therefore you must accept that Jesus's existence is 100% subjective, because it is.

Everything is subjective, losing on a 1/100,000,000,000,000,000 chance is subjective, your past is subjective, it goes on and on...

Typical Catholic cop out debate. "YOU'RE JUST....YOU'RE JUST IGNORING ALL THE EVIDENCE! WE ALL SEE IT! YOU'RE BEING IGNORANT!". No, you're being too accepting. You can't prove he exists, fact. FACT. I have fact on my side.

Calvanist starts with C but that's about as close as you get. lol Right, you stole the words out of my mouth. Now you are telling me that I can't believe in what I want. I could believe that grass is purple if I wanted.

I'm not, I just realise that I get one life and it could end at any time. So whilst I wonder and find myself in constant amazement of all that could, might, and probably does exist in the infinite space, I'm not quite ready (sarcasm) to hand my life over to God, Jesus or any other religion, people no better than you or I that would have us lead our lives a certain way, our ONLY lives, for what? I need proof if you want me to do such a thing, and I have none.

I FEEL GOOD ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVE IN. I don't care to be just another animal. Science rules your life.

This doesn't mean I'm rubbishing your religion and saying it's fake, I don't know or care if God exists. I live my life for me and those I love. If he exists, great, if he doesn't, great. I don't worship him now, I wouldn't worship him if I found out he existed, but I'd accept his existence.

I live my life for those I love, those I will love, and God.

As of right now, neither God NOR Jesus can be proven to exist anywhere but inside your minds.

Just like our lives.

Sorry, I should have realised that the comedy quote was a bit too high above you.

Yeah, way too high above me.

That was the joke, the fact that he was putting across the ridiculousness of creationism. You're what, 16-17? You'll get the joke when you hit 20 or so.

17 turning 18 soon.

Funny, because I think idiots are those who constantly try to prove the Bible, despite it being as futile as trying to disprove it.

I don't try to prove the Bible.

One side spends their life trying to oppressively prove an ancient text of stories, the other spends their time trying to disprove the stories. What a waste of life on Earth.

Yeah and what are you gonna do with your life? You act like that's the only life those people have.

The idea of all religion, more or less, is unconditional love for one and all, that we are allegedly God's children and he loves us, without exception.

All religion? Not all religion has a supreme ruler, God/Godess(s/es).

That's the message of religion. The problem is, people, as they have a habit of doing, took that too far, and started manipulating people. So now we have Republicans and fundamentalists etc. It's not about who believes in what.

Right.

If you were a true Christian, you'd leave everyone to do and believe as they wish, safe in the knowledge that the god you believe in will forgive them for whatever sins they commit, and love them regardless. Not go around poking your idiotic nose in and saying "THERE'S PROOF! GAYS SHOULDN'T MARRY!" and shit like that.

I don't care what you believe in. I just don't care for you trampling all over my religion. Like I said of course I'm gonna stand up for my religion, just like you stand up for what you believe in.

Yeah, it's bs. My uncle has a medical degree and he says that he finds it rather sickening that him and many others around the world have worked hard to heal, help and care for people, but after they do, people give the glory to God. That's straight up disrespectful. God didn't study for multiple years and earn knowledge to be able to save your life, that doctor did.

LOL. Don't try to associate that with me.

Idiots call them miracles, but they're not. Diseases go into remission. People say: "OH MY GOD HE SURVIVED THAT CAR CRASH! MIRACLE!", no, it's simple. The crash just didn't do enough damage to kill him. The chances of him surviving may have been small, but they were still there, and they are the reason he survived. Christians and Catholics alike always look over the logical explanations in favour of giving credit to their lord. Why? Because they are scared. They're scared that they still haven't witnessed any miracles, so they decide what the miracles are.

BECAUSE GOD IS THE CREATOR OF ALL, to us, therefore everything that happens is in his will. So no we are not moronic. I've never claimed anything to be a miracle.

Some people do actually believe these things are blessings from God. They give God credit for simple coincidence.

Because to us that "simple coincidence" was God's will.

No, he survived because the cancer went into remission of it's own accord, fact. There's no blessing, it's science, scientific fact. Diseases go into remission.

To you it isn't blessing because your faith is in science. To us it is a blessing because we believe that what happens is in God's will, good or bad, they all have meaning. Bad events can be "miracles" if you ask me. There are many scenarios I could come out that describe what i'm saying.

My Aunt claimed it was a miracle when my Uncle came back from cancer. The chances of him surviving were small, but the cancer went into remission. She gave God the glory, but the results and tests show that it actually did it on it's own. There's the proof. Stop being so ignorant and giving an unproven deity credit for a hard human's work.

Thank the cancer then. Thank nature.

If God does exist, that's not what he wants. He would want us to get along and rejoice in the fact that we have the ability to learn how to heal each other as his ALLEGED Son would have. Not sit in Heaven going: "Yeaaaah, baby. All me, alllll me.".

He is a jealous god. That's why one of the commandments states "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Because there's many medications, many treatments, many natural occurances that beat diseases.

Given by God. My opinion.

Ironically, many Christians I've debated with were always afraid of science. I'm sure that's not because they didn't want things proven wrong...or...hmm.

Science has been pretty good for Christians.

That is a pathetic thing to say. Hitler thought the world would be nicer if everyone had blonde hair and blue eyes. Your thought process is no different from his, you fascist.

lmfao. Am I gonna kill people for it? No, sorry. :) You're way off, my friend.

"My friends would be better if they shared my religion.". You are such a self-righteous child. You are the problem with this world, you and people like you. Nothing but armchair oppressors who simply dislike the tag that you deserve.

lol I can't want to have a friend to discuss my religion? it's better than debating about it. There's nothing wrong if I had a buddhist friend, hell my brother's buddhist do you think I love him less? If you did you'd be completely wrong.

Talk about insecurities, though! Man! You are so insecure in your religion that you need other Christians around you so you can all talk about it? I know a devout Christian, she's one of my closest friends, but she never feels the need to talk about it, because she's comfortable in her beliefs.

Lol I don't need to talk about my faith, I choose not to. There's some Christian club at my school that these people asked me to join because I was reading this book associated with my faith and I don't want to.

Why did you even need to restrain yourself? Why should you care who does and who doesn't believe in Jesus? You believe he does, so what does my opinion matter? I couldn't give a **** less what you think about my beliefs, because they're mine. Nobody has to live by them but me.

I don't care, just don't trample on my faith.

Dude, you just said that your friends would be better if they ****ing prayed to the same God as you.

No I said it'd be nicer NOT better there's a huge difference.

What's up with that? If you believe in God, God obviously gave them the freedom to believe or not. If God exists, he doesn't exist to be a babysitter, he doesn't exist to make us do things how he wishes. That's why the argument: "WHY DOESN'T HE INTERVENE!?" is dumb, because that wouldn't be his purpose.

lol I was mocking people that say "Why doesn't he intervene?!" He did give people the freedom to believe, I'm not trying to convert anyone, will you get it through your thick skull.

However, if he does exist, he gave humans free will. Free will to love, fight, hate, kill, act, curse, ***** laugh, everything. Believe in whatever we wish to believe in.

I DIDNT SAY YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY WHERE ARE YOU COMING UP WITH THIS?

It's like some bands. The band themselves are great, but their fans give off a negative view of them, because they act in a way that the band didn't intend. Tool, for example, have started to dislike a bulk of their own fanbase. Because a lot of Tool fans are so ****ing stuck up and pretentious, that it gives everyone else a horrid view of the band and honest fans, like me, a bad name.

Lol Honest fans like you? Wow, that's an extremely self-righteous view right there. Yeah you are so much better than they are.

Do you see what I'm saying? If Christians, on the whole, weren't so ****ing oppressive, there would be less nasty athiests. The more you push, the more they want to push back because they don't like being pushed.

I'm not oppressive I just don't appreciate people trampling over my religion. The more you push the stronger my faith is.

If they say "God doesn't exist.", all you've got to say is "I believe he does.". End. Nobody is saying a discussion hurt anybody, but pushing only lasts for so long. The more you push, the more you'll be pushed back, and sooner or later one side will lose their temper, and that's why we have a borderlined ****ing holy war in the Middle East.

Ok, I will. I don't think I've attacked anyone yet. You're the one calling me names.

Regardless of what ANYONE believes in this thread, I think we can agree; Religion isn't mean to get anybody killed, and that is what it's doing. It's oppressing people every day. Who, in turn, oppress back. It's getting us nowhere as a race.

I keep my faith to myself unless someone tries to trample it.


Arucard, as much as I think some of your views are moderately to highly retarded, I do feel sorry for you, because all you want to do is generally discuss religion sometimes. I don't believe this is the best place for that, and I believe we should save the rest of our debate for an actual religion thread.

You don't have a MASSIVELY oppressive attitude, you're not homophobic etc. There is a time and a place, but I think the problem is that the flaming rule here is ridiculous. If you make a post that offends someone, in any way, it's flaming.

I do enjoy discussing it sometimes I'll admit. I do on average keep it to myself though. It's not a debate really, it's a discussion. It's an endless discussion that I don't really want to go any further with because I don't see it going anywhere because my lack of skills in explaining myself. -_-

wtf are you getting at? lmfao

Forcing your religion on others is persecuting them for disbelief until they give in and a number of other scenarios.

My scenario was just me stating a belief of mine. If anything I was being concerned/caring. Take it as an offense if you want. -_-

I think it's a shame that not everyone can have faith in God but that's like someone wishing for world peace. It just won't happen.
by saying you think its a shame that not everyone "can have"(everyone can) faith in god and comparing it to world peace,you are saying that everyone should believe in god

Higher Power? So called God? Is that even possible to have something that's impossible to see pulling the strings?

Perhaps for all we know there have been human's or perhaps creatures of differant species pulling the strings on our humanity as if we were toys. There's no proof of course but there's always the possibilities.

by saying you think its a shame that not everyone "can have"(everyone can) faith in god and comparing it to world peace,you are saying that everyone should believe in god

*sigh*

No it was compared as ALOT of people want world peace but it's not gonna happen. Me, thinking based on my faith, it would be a good thing if everyone believed in god but it won't happen. For reasons you probably don't understand because you don't believe. So don't take it the wrong way, it's not meant to be offensive it's meant to be personally concerned/caring.

so your saying alot of people want everyone to be christain then
you know nothing of my beliefs and lets say im not christian,how is it that i cant understand what you think just because i think differently?

*sigh* Despite the friendly meaning of this thread it's slowly turning out to a debate of beleifs, then soon an arguement, then flaming...

All he's basically saying is Jesus isn't the one we should Idolize it's his actions, ones we could even aspire to. Who cares whether or not he's REAL. The fact of the matter is, even if this person is completely fictional and the person who wrote it made it up, that there's a message in his actions.

Be you faithful or not, there's bigger issues then whether or not you beleive in some religion or not.

"NO CONVINCING PROOF, FOR ME, THAT HE DID EXIST." End of story.

What's your point? There hasn't been any convincing evidence that Jesus exists, to me. I'm not an ignorant person, there just hasn't been enough evidence to convince me that Jesus exists, and you're ignorant to assume that just because it's enough for you, that it should be enough for everyone.

You assume that because you and many others accept it, that it should be enough for everyone else, and anyone who doesn't, is ignoring it. Wrong.

Bullshit. Don't throw yourself on either side then, but don't go around saying "OMFG SHUT UP YOU DONT KNOW IF HE EXISTED OR NOT"

You don't, though. You believe he did, you've seen things that lead you to believe he did. You know that YOU believe he existed, you don't know if he factually did.

Just because I'm christian doesn't mean I'm catholic, dude. I'm not catholic.

I was speaking generally.

No you don't. And I don't have much say in telling you to deny it but what is your reason in telling someone not to say Jesus existed. Does it physically harm you?

What? I've never told you not to believe he existed, I've told you not to say -- matter of factly -- that he did, because it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

So typical coming from someone of your mindset.

Of my mind set? Where are your degrees? What have you studied besides biased internet essays comprised of sensationalistic nonsense?

THAT WASNT MY POOOINT. My point was that if you deny Jesus then deny all the other historical figures that have even less documentation or only written documentation period.

No, that's not the case. If I deny Jesus, I simply deny Jesus. You are assuming that to deny one is to deny them all. No, that's not the case.

You see, there is a whole weight, significance and tapestry that comes with being the SON OF AN OMNIPOTENT DEITY that not all other historical figures have. So I'm less inclined to believe the son of a deity existed, than I am to believe in an ancient warlord or emperor.

-_- WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU WANT? VIDEO DOCUMENTATION?!

What evidence do you have? Oh...yeah, none.

You choose to accept the "evidence" as evidence, that doesn't mean it is evidence that holds any weight.

So, if you don't know if he existed or not then why would you defend the thought that he might have existed if you say there's absolutely NO proof.

Because there's no factual proof to say that Jesus has never existed, there is only educated opinions and studies, the same applies for the pro-Jesus arguments. There's no fact, on either side.

You're so wrong, I'm not worried whether he existed or not because I know.

No, you don't. What do you not grasp? You BELIEVE he existed, Arucard. You BELIEVE he did based on evidence you CHOOSE to accept.

There is NOTHING...NOTHING that is objective proof. Everything you believe, every bit of evidence you've seen, it's all subjective. It's as much a piece of evidence as you want to believe. You don't know for a fact that he existed, and that is undeniable. Fact = Beyond all opinion, proveable, undeniable.

Jesus's existence is none of those.

If I say: "Jesus never existed.", you simply cannot prove me wrong. All you can do is throw out studies that you trust and believe. You can't provide anything objective.

Whatever. Again and again I have to tell you there are so many historical figures that had less documentation than Jesus and they are still recorded in textbooks as being an actual person in history. SO WHY THE HELL DO YOU NOT COMPLAIN TO THEM?

I'm not complaining about ANYBODY, you muppet. This is what I mean about Christians, man. You're so wound up, so upset and so enraged that I am merely QUESTIONING the existence of Jesus, that you make things up.

If someone says; "This warlord existed in feudal Japan circa *Insert year*.", I'm more inclined to say "That sounds realistic.", than I am to agree with "Once there was a man sent to Earth by God, birthed by the virgin Mary.", etc. I'm not saying it did or didn't happen, I'm saying it's a suggestion that requires a belief in God to seem realistic, faith. You don't need to be religious to believe that some random human existed in some random time.

I respect that you're what, 17? This may be a bit beyond your comprehension.

Hitler, hitler was around in time of video recording. So stop dragging that around. That's such a horrible representation.

You're missing my point, and I'm starting to think that it's because you genuinely don't know how to comprehend my posts.

Everything is subjective, losing on a 1/100,000,000,000,000,000 chance is subjective, your past is subjective, it goes on and on...

No, not everything is subjective. Subjective means opinionated, as viewed by a singular or collective but not proveable. Objective means fact.

E.g: It's a subjective view that gays are disgusting. It's an OBJECTIVE view that concrete is hard.

Calvanist starts with C but that's about as close as you get. lol Right, you stole the words out of my mouth. Now you are telling me that I can't believe in what I want. I could believe that grass is purple if I wanted.

Precisely. It wouldn't be a very credible claim, it'd be very outlandish, but you could indeed believe that.

I FEEL GOOD ABOUT WHAT I BELIEVE IN. I don't care to be just another animal. Science rules your life.

Science doesn't rule my life, and my posts suggest otherwise. If science ruled my life I'd be an athiest you pathetic, ignorant child. As soon as you get frustrated, you wig out.

Relax. Stop randomly saying things that we both know aren't true. Don't type things out of rage.

I live my life for those I love, those I will love, and God.

Good, you can continue living for something that might/might not exist, and doing things according to what this "alleged" being views as good and bad. I'll live my life free of any of that.

Cool? Right.

Just like our lives.

That's a subjective belief also. Many people would argue against it, but at the end of the day, as outlandish as it is, it can't be proven wrong.

I actually find the idea of a singular subjective consciousness to be quite acceptable.

Yeah, way too high above me.

That's why I said that, just then.

17 turning 18 soon.

Good luck with that.

I don't try to prove the Bible.

I never said you did.

Yeah and what are you gonna do with your life? You act like that's the only life those people have.

I'll do whatever I want with my life, free from the guilt that is often thread into you by the Christian and Catholic churches respectively.

I know a girl who is afraid to indulge in the perfectly healthy, normal human act of masturbation, simply because she's afraid she'll go to hell. Nice religion.

All religion? Not all religion has a supreme ruler, God/Godess(s/es).

My point still applies.

I don't care what you believe in. I just don't care for you trampling all over my religion. Like I said of course I'm gonna stand up for my religion, just like you stand up for what you believe in.

Wait...trampling all over your religion? Are you a mental case?

I've sat here for the past three or four posts and said that not only am I NOT an athiest, but I would defend your right to your religion if I had to. This is where you expose how childish you are, you make things up when you get angry.

You view it as trampling over your religion simply because I'm not bowing down and believing. I trample over your debate, not your religion.

Because to us that "simple coincidence" was God's will.

Idiotic, then. Coincidence is just that.

I was about to get on a bus to work on the day of the July 7th bombings in London, but I missed my bus. That bus was then blown up.

That was simply coincidence, there's nothing to suggest it was God's will. However, since there is nothing to PROVE why coincidences happen, you bastardise it and say it was God. Since you slyly know it can't be proven false nor correct. It's a cheap way out.

To you it isn't blessing because your faith is in science. To us it is a blessing because we believe that what happens is in God's will, good or bad, they all have meaning. Bad events can be "miracles" if you ask me. There are many scenarios I could come out that describe what i'm saying.

For the last freaking time, my faith is not in science. I trust it, I don't believe in it as a religion or whatever.

I don't care, I've studied science, and there is nothing religious about cancer going into remission, nothing at all. Fact.

Thank the cancer then. Thank nature.

I will, and do.

He is a jealous god. That's why one of the commandments states "You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

Let's be honest, that's just bullshit isn't it? At least admit where you've been beat.

That's another thing I dislike about Christians and Catholics, so presumptuous. Deciding how God is, what God likes, what he means. I can be arrogant, but I've never been so presumptuous as to try to interpret an omnipotent deity.

You can't even get MY posts right, don't go trying to interpret your God.

Given by God. My opinion.

It's not opinion, though. There is factually evidence and explanations as to why these things happen. None of it is to do with God. That's just you being desperate.

Science has been pretty good for Christians.

Yeah, they use it when it suits them, trash it when it doesn't. E.g: Your "Given by God." comment vis-a-vis medicine.

lmfao. Am I gonna kill people for it? No, sorry. :) You're way off, my friend.

I'm not way off, I'm likening your mindsets. He thought people would be better if they were to his liking, so do you. I'm not saying you're to his extreme.

lol I can't want to have a friend to discuss my religion? it's better than debating about it. There's nothing wrong if I had a buddhist friend, hell my brother's buddhist do you think I love him less? If you did you'd be completely wrong.

You clearly do love him less, don't you? If you would love him more as a Christian, then you love him less as a Buddhist. Simple logic.

Lol I don't need to talk about my faith, I choose not to. There's some Christian club at my school that these people asked me to join because I was reading this book associated with my faith and I don't want to.

You don't really know WHAT you want, do you? You're a very confused boy.

I don't care, just don't trample on my faith.

Let's make a deal, if you start reading my posts...well that's it. Start reading my posts.

I've never trampled your faith.

No I said it'd be nicer NOT better there's a huge difference.

Nicer? As in...more pleasant? As in...better? Yes. Stop swimming in the semantic pool.

lol I was mocking people that say "Why doesn't he intervene?!" He did give people the freedom to believe, I'm not trying to convert anyone, will you get it through your thick skull.

You're just PREACHING tolerance, you don't believe in it. You don't tolerate that I have the right to question Jesus's existence, that I have the right to be agnostic. You hate it, and your posts prove it.

You have to restrain yourself from replying. You're not trying to convert, you just don't like anyone attempting to question your religion. Dumb.

I DIDNT SAY YOU HAVE TO BELIEVE IN CHRISTIANITY WHERE ARE YOU COMING UP WITH THIS?

I'm not ****ing saying that you said it, you mug. Do you not read my posts in context? Can you not tell when I'm speaking generally?

Lol Honest fans like you? Wow, that's an extremely self-righteous view right there. Yeah you are so much better than they are.

I am. I don't go around shoving the band down people's throats, dissing them if they don't like them and acting like I'm better because I do. I like them and that's enough for me. Couldn't care who doesn't or who does.

Christians like you should be the same. Be confident in your faith, don't be scared that you're wrong, you believe something, so believe it. Who cares what anybody else thinks?

I'm not oppressive I just don't appreciate people trampling over my religion. The more you push the stronger my faith is.

Then it's not faith. If your faith is controlled by others, it's simply not faith, if it doesn't come from within you.

Your argument is falling to shit.

Ok, I will. I don't think I've attacked anyone yet. You're the one calling me names.

I'm calling you what I believe you to be.

I keep my faith to myself unless someone tries to trample it.

I've never, ever tried to trample your faith you idiot. Why are you ignoring the fact that I have repeatedly said I respect your beliefs?

Me questioning them doesn't mean I don't respect them. I respect your right to them, I respect your right to believe in them. I've said that so many times, so stop saying that I'm trying to trample it, you idiot.

You're a very, very insecure young man. That's what you are. You use your "faith" as a defense mechanism. You're not a true Christian, because any true Christian is comfortable enough not to need to rabidly defend themselves like you.

I do enjoy discussing it sometimes I'll admit. I do on average keep it to myself though. It's not a debate really, it's a discussion. It's an endless discussion that I don't really want to go any further with because I don't see it going anywhere because my lack of skills in explaining myself. -_-

You lack the ability to explain yourself because you lose your temper and you misinterpret posts.

You have points, and I can see that. If you try arranging them instead of throwing, you'd be more respected.

-Ripe

so your saying alot of people want everyone to be christain then
you know nothing of my beliefs and lets say im not christian,how is it that i cant understand what you think just because i think differently?

No, you are using everythign i say word for word but not getting the message. It's not because you think differently it's because you don't know the point of my belief. Let me explain it to you, if everyone were a true believer, as apart of my faith, if you are a believer and recognize Christ as your lord and savior you will be forgiven. Therefore, you will be granted eternal peace in God's kingdom. I think that's a wonderful thing if everyone were apart of it. It's a good thing not a bad thing, you think I'm trying to convert you and scare you into believing. Wrong. That's why I wish everyone were apart of it because it's a good thing. You think I just want to go HAHA you're going to hell, no. So, those who think all Christians are just whack and just trying to brainwash people it's not about that. I'm not saying all Christians think the way I do but that's how I feel about it and I'd just hope you'd accept that I meant it with good intention.

As for world peace, I wish there was world peace because then everyone can live their lives in harmony, but it's not gonna happen. And that's what I'm recognizing, I'm not expecting everyone to believe.

It's completely irrelevant to ask, "well how would you know that's the case?" It's my belief and what I said is said with good intentions in heart.

thats if god actually exists
and god exists as the bible