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Thread: American Dream

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    "It's called the american dream because you have to be asleep to believe it".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Say what you will of America, but that dream is imbedded in to our core; it's written in to our law and in to the hearts and minds of its people. America has made mistakes, no one will argue we haven't. But we've also tried our hardest to bring some good to the world. Do we mess up? Ya, but we still try.

    The American Dream is far from dead, but it's not being aided by emerging so******ts. People still flock to this country to pursue a life they could never have dreamed of anywhere else. People still come here to live a prejudice free life or simply one where they don't have to be afraid of their government killing them in the middle of the night.

    You want to hear a story of the American Dream? A man that my family and I know was born and raised in Vietnam. When the split happened and when America came to aid South Vietnam, he fought with the American armed forces. After American troops left, this man was captured by the Viet Cong and subjected to ten years of torture in a Viet Cong prison cell. After he was released, the man moved to America and started a new life. He worked his way up to provide his family with the best life he could offer them. While he himself never became a billionaire, he raised four children who dedicated their lives to the medical field and have all become doctors.

    Pull your heads out of your sheeple butts and stop pretending for a second that America has disappeared or abandoned what we once stood for. We've had some hiccups and we've hit some stumbling blocks, but at the end of the day we always get back up. Every day we, as a nation and as a people, work towards bettering ourselves and what we stand for. While I'm sure everyone would like to have those privileges, we, as Americans, know that we've been born with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That right is guaranteed to no other people.
    Oh give it a rest. "That right is guaranteed to no other people." Of course it is.

    You think being born with the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is an AMERICAN thing? No wonder it's the most hated nation if that is the aura you're collectively giving off. What you just described is simply a birth-given right. I have the right to everything you do, you just have it written down. It makes no difference. In fact, I live in a country where healthcare costs, for all intents and purposes, nothing. I can go in hospital and get a life-saving operation for nothing. Can you?

    Stop acting like the rights you have are exclusive to Americans. It's genuinely sickening. Gays can't marry, abortion is illegal in some places. Yet, you want to talk about how free your nation is? You also include God in your pledge of allegiance. A pledge of allegiance is a laughable concept anyway, but to make everyone, atheists and everyone else included, pledge allegiance to one nation under GOD? F*ck that. That's not free.

    WE'VE done this, WE'VE done that. To quote Chris Rock, "Be a f*cking person." Stop saying WE. Who are you? You're A man. You'd be *****ing at people judging America by the stupid ones, so why are you lumping everyone together? You don't speak for everyone. I don't doubt there are people who share your belief, but there are many, especially now, who do not. "We, as Americans..." Always the way, never thinking as individual humans. I don't give a shit about being a good Englishman, just a good person. Would you not pursue happiness, liberty or life (Whatever the f*ck that means) if you were born in Europe or Canada? Of course you would.

    You're too focused on the WE. People thrive or succeed on their own steam, not because they're Americans.

    You tie so much of your identity into the fact that your parents had sex in America that it's honestly disturbing to me. You could've been born anywhere and you had no say in it. That's all it is. That's the only reason we're born anywhere. Our parents f*cked somewhere and we came out of it. That's not something I'm proud of.

    Patriotism is a plague. A putrid, rotten, festering disease and this world is better off without it. So, as for pulling heads out of butts? If MORE Americans took more time to learn that there's a world outside of their isolated, inter-focused floating fortress of an island continent, they might learn that a lot of the world shares the freedoms you also claim to have. Though, who wants to do that? It's much better to not watch the news and just assume everyone else is living in medieval times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Pull your heads out of your sheeple butts and stop pretending for a second that America has disappeared or abandoned what we once stood for.
    You ****ing torture people...


    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    While I'm sure everyone would like to have those privileges, we, as Americans, know that we've been born with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That right is guaranteed to no other people.
    Does the freedom to pursue happiness include pursuing gray area acts like torturing other Americans, or only the legally established wiretapping and indefinite imprisonment without habeas corpus?
    Last edited by Ronin; 10-31-2010 at 09:55 PM.

    Stay frosty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
    not quoting all the text
    I usually argue with you, but your getting +rep for that.
    Last edited by Alivada; 10-31-2010 at 10:31 PM.

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    One of the few times I agree with Norrin.

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    The American Dream is Stephen Colbert.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
    Mean shiz
    Please don't listen to Str1der, he makes american's like myself seem more ignorant than we should be looked at.

    EDIT: And what Xeno said.. god damn you Stephen Colbert, for not only being intelligent BUT funny!! (lol)
    Last edited by Runwiththelight; 11-01-2010 at 03:52 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
    Oh give it a rest. "That right is guaranteed to no other people." Of course it is.

    You think being born with the right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness is an AMERICAN thing? No wonder it's the most hated nation if that is the aura you're collectively giving off. What you just described is simply a birth-given right. I have the right to everything you do, you just have it written down. It makes no difference. In fact, I live in a country where healthcare costs, for all intents and purposes, nothing. I can go in hospital and get a life-saving operation for nothing. Can you?

    Stop acting like the rights you have are exclusive to Americans. It's genuinely sickening. Gays can't marry, abortion is illegal in some places. Yet, you want to talk about how free your nation is? You also include God in your pledge of allegiance. A pledge of allegiance is a laughable concept anyway, but to make everyone, atheists and everyone else included, pledge allegiance to one nation under GOD? F*ck that. That's not free.

    WE'VE done this, WE'VE done that. To quote Chris Rock, "Be a f*cking person." Stop saying WE. Who are you? You're A man. You'd be *****ing at people judging America by the stupid ones, so why are you lumping everyone together? You don't speak for everyone. I don't doubt there are people who share your belief, but there are many, especially now, who do not. "We, as Americans..." Always the way, never thinking as individual humans. I don't give a shit about being a good Englishman, just a good person. Would you not pursue happiness, liberty or life (Whatever the f*ck that means) if you were born in Europe or Canada? Of course you would.

    You're too focused on the WE. People thrive or succeed on their own steam, not because they're Americans.

    You tie so much of your identity into the fact that your parents had sex in America that it's honestly disturbing to me. You could've been born anywhere and you had no say in it. That's all it is. That's the only reason we're born anywhere. Our parents f*cked somewhere and we came out of it. That's not something I'm proud of.

    Patriotism is a plague. A putrid, rotten, festering disease and this world is better off without it. So, as for pulling heads out of butts? If MORE Americans took more time to learn that there's a world outside of their isolated, inter-focused floating fortress of an island continent, they might learn that a lot of the world shares the freedoms you also claim to have. Though, who wants to do that? It's much better to not watch the news and just assume everyone else is living in medieval times.
    Aww, did I make you upset?

    Personally, I'm glad you responded in such a manner. It just makes you look irrational, angry, bitter, and egotistical. I've heard your rants on how people can't be proud of their nation or have pride, etc etc.. It's just the same long winded junk you always spout out. Hey Norrin, newsflash: you aren't always right. Get over it and I promise you, life will be so much easier for you.

    Last edited by Str1der; 11-01-2010 at 04:17 AM.




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    Hello, interesting thread.

    Norrin don't temp ban me this time, I am just watching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loric View Post
    I love how your name is "Useless", and your avatar says "Canada" in it.
    LOL GET IT?

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    RunwiththeLight, I consider it borderline flaming for someone who isn't really taking part in the debate to chime in and call someone who's making a sincere effort to prove a point "ignorant", and then not contribute to the thread themselves.

    No more of that sort of thing, please. I don't really agree with str1der either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tolerate disrespect of this sort towards him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Aww, did I make you upset?

    Personally, I'm glad you responded in such a manner. It just makes you look irrational, angry, bitter, and egotistical. I've heard your rants on how people can't be proud of their nation or have pride, etc etc.. It's just the same long winded junk you always spout out. Hey Norrin, newsflash: you aren't always right. Get over it and I promise you, life will be so much easier for you.

    Holy christ. Incoming.

    I'm staying out of this one. Prepare for PAGES and PAGES.
    THIS MA SIGNATURE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Aww, did I make you upset?

    Personally, I'm glad you responded in such a manner. I've heard your rants on how people can't be proud of their nation or have pride, etc etc.. It's just the same long winded junk you always spout out. Hey Norrin, newsflash: you aren't always right. Get over it and I promise you, life will be so much better for you.

    Get over what? YOU replied to ME at length, I countered and now you're bugged. Why am I the one with anything to get over?

    You were good enough to dish out a beat-my-chest, wave-my-flag reply to someone, me, daring to question America. In doing so, you demonstrated the stereotypical think last, act first mentality that America has come to be known for. Not unlike the Bush Administration. Someone has something negative to say toward your country and the first thing you do is fire all cylinders. You don't think to aim them and make sure they're not blanks.

    If this upsets you, then I'd cease being a patriotic, blinkered human being when collectively summarising your beliefs on this matter.

    If you have any legitimate backing to the overwhelmingly false, blindly patriotic and immensely wrong things you said, then present them. It's just petty and classless to fire off childish shots at me whilst spiralling toward, and simultaneously crashing into, defeat.

    Sitting there saying, "You're not always right." doesn't do anything, because as it stands, your argument doesn't stand. Mine does. I am almost always on the winning end of debates because, unlike you, I keep my mouth closed, hands off the keyboard and nose out of the debate unless I absolutely know what I am talking about.

    No offense, but you don't.

    As for life being better if I get over whatever it is you propose I get over? I'm rich, surrounded by my loved ones and working a job I love to death. I'm living the dream you probably haven't even lived yet, and I'm not even American. So to close the argument: I have wealth, life, happiness and liberty.

    An Englishman living what YOU call The American Dream. Are you done? You're done. Peace. One nation, and all that nonsense.

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    i believe in the american dream as in if you work hard you can make something of your self. but that holds true for most first world country's if not all

    i was watching a documentary about kid mexican immigrants and they all seemed to act like you get here and your instantly rich and can sleep all day and do what ever you want

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    Quote Originally Posted by shadowsworn View Post
    RunwiththeLight, I consider it borderline flaming for someone who isn't really taking part in the debate to chime in and call someone who's making a sincere effort to prove a point "ignorant", and then not contribute to the thread themselves.

    No more of that sort of thing, please. I don't really agree with str1der either, but that doesn't mean I'm going to tolerate disrespect of this sort towards him.
    I apologize, though that makes no sense. What he said made other american's look ignorant, but when I told him he was being ignorant, I get warned? Well, whatever, rules are rules.

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    whether or not what he said is ignorant I don't particularly care. Norrin and Str1der are having a debate, and sniping at either of them from the sidelines and calling one of them "ignorant" because you disagree with him is not welcome.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
    Get over what? YOU replied to ME at length, I countered and now you're bugged. Why am I the one with anything to get over?

    You were good enough to dish out a beat-my-chest, wave-my-flag reply to someone, me, daring to question America. In doing so, you demonstrated the stereotypical think last, act first mentality that America has come to be known for. Not unlike the Bush Administration. Someone has something negative to say toward your country and the first thing you do is fire all cylinders. You don't think to aim them and make sure they're not blanks.

    If this upsets you, then I'd cease being a patriotic, blinkered human being when collectively summarising your beliefs on this matter.

    If you have any legitimate backing to the overwhelmingly false, blindly patriotic and immensely wrong things you said, then present them. It's just petty and classless to fire off childish shots at me whilst spiralling toward, and simultaneously crashing into, defeat.

    Sitting there saying, "You're not always right." doesn't do anything, because as it stands, your argument doesn't stand. Mine does. I am almost always on the winning end of debates because, unlike you, I keep my mouth closed, hands off the keyboard and nose out of the debate unless I absolutely know what I am talking about.

    No offense, but you don't.
    No Norrin, that's the thing: you don't. You run your mouth and wave your flag perpetuating this elitist attitude of yours. I've read many of your threads and debates, and you literally stand on a box and claim yourself to be the divine truth in each case. Please, for everyone's sake, climb down from your box and talk to others with the same respect you claim no one gives you. Respect isn't given, it's earned.

    As for the topic at hand, nothing I said in my post is false. Find ONE thing. In fact, to save your the trouble (because I know you'll want to do it anyways) I'll just start disecting my own posts.

    "Say what you will of America, but that dream is imbedded in to our core; it's written in to our law and in to the hearts and minds of its people. America has made mistakes, no one will argue we haven't. But we've also tried our hardest to bring some good to the world. Do we mess up? Ya, but we still try."

    Welp, let's see: the dream really is imbedded in to our law. It is what fueled the hearts and minds of the American people for centuries. You can't argue that, so don't waste either of our time and pretend you can. I admitted that America has made mistakes.. there are a lot of things I'm not proud of on both ends of the political spectra and national relations. But England is no better. Japan isn't leading any way either. We're all working towards a better tomorrow together. I'm pretty sure that that entire paragraph basically admits that. Moving on!

    "The American Dream is far from dead, but it's not being aided by emerging so******ts. People still flock to this country to pursue a life they could never have dreamed of anywhere else. People still come here to live a prejudice free life or simply one where they don't have to be afraid of their government killing them in the middle of the night."


    Care to point out where anything in there is false? America, as a nation, was built as a capitalist society. It's what allowed us to get to where we were today. So******m, however you want to define it, does in fact take away what makes our country part of what it is. It can't be argued, it's fact. People also still do come here, every day, to escape from a life they weren't happy with. Still waiting for the false material here, my man.

    As for my story, you can't debate with that. It's true, and it's inspirational, atleast to me.

    "Pull your heads out of your sheeple butts and stop pretending for a second that America has disappeared or abandoned what we once stood for. We've had some hiccups and we've hit some stumbling blocks, but at the end of the day we always get back up. Every day we, as a nation and as a people, work towards bettering ourselves and what we stand for. While I'm sure everyone would like to have those privileges, we, as Americans, know that we've been born with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That right is guaranteed to no other people."

    So let's see.. I admit that we're once again not perfect. Check. I also don't pretend for one second to think of myself as better than another person. I simply defend an idea that has given me a fantastic life that I am blessed to have. A loving family, a fantastic education, and a safe environment to grow, live, and hopefully to one day raise my own family in.

    Out of my entire first post, that is the ONLY section that has any form of patriotism in it. So what? Deal with it. Just because you, Norrin, don't believe in patriotism and just because you, Norrin, believe it to be wrong doesn't mean that anyone else does or has to. It's your opinion. The difference between you and I is that I respect your right to have that opinion. You, on the other hand, don't think that to be the case.

    Norrin, your post was not an arguement. It was you blindly ranting about how you hate this or that. You didn't rebuttal anything but simply stated your apparently undying hatred towards an idea that you don't have to agree with. But that doesn't mean it's wrong or that others can't.

    I expected more from you..
    Last edited by Str1der; 11-01-2010 at 04:47 AM.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    No Norrin, that's the thing: you don't. You run your mouth and wave your flag perpetuating this elitist attitude of yours. I've read many of your threads and debates, and you literally stand on a box and claim yourself to be the divine truth in each case. Please, for everyone's sake, climb down from your box and talk to others with the same respect you claim no one gives you. Respect isn't given, it's earned.
    I do love that.

    "I've read many threads of yours." followed by, "You proclaim yourself to be the divine truth in each case." One statement followed by a factually and grossly incorrect claim. I've never done that. I'm only right by fact if facts are there to make me right.

    You ask me to talk to you with respect, yet you gave me such an utterly petulant and ridiculous reply when all I did was retort to your argument. An argument YOU brought to ME, all while telling me to pull my head out of my ***. No, no...not just me. "Us"...whoever, WE are. Yet, I'M to be respectful? I am the one who doesn't respect opposing beliefs? Call me Winona Ryder, cos I ain't buying that.

    If you haven't noticed, nobody here seems to agree with your post so far. So who exactly is raging at me for respect, or lack thereof? More to the point, people who usually DISLIKE my posts have given me rep for my reply to you. Yet, your last reply was met with frowns, not mine.

    Just, you know, think about that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    As for the topic at hand, nothing I said in my post is false. Find ONE thing. In fact, to save your the trouble (because I know you'll want to do it anyways) I'll just start disecting my own posts.

    "Say what you will of America, but that dream is imbedded in to our core; it's written in to our law and in to the hearts and minds of its people. America has made mistakes, no one will argue we haven't. But we've also tried our hardest to bring some good to the world. Do we mess up? Ya, but we still try."

    Welp, let's see: the dream really is imbedded in to our law. It is what fueled the hearts and minds of the American people for centuries. You can't argue that, so don't waste either of our time and pretend you can. I admitted that America has made mistakes.. there are a lot of things I'm not proud of on both ends of the political spectra and national relations. But England is no better. Japan isn't leading any way either. We're all working towards a better tomorrow together. I'm pretty sure that that entire paragraph basically admits that. Moving on!
    England is no better? I never said it was, well...besides for the fact that we have healthcare that's free for all intents and purposes, a better transit system that lowers carbon emissions etc. BESIDES THAT, besides all those troublesome facts that you hate, because they discredit your words, you're right. You're right in that we're no better in terms of freedoms. Exactly. So why are you acting like it's an inherantly American thing? That's the issue here. You can't sit there and act like this is a unified effort toward a better, collective world...with the ARROGANT asterisk of, "...but ours is better." Especially when the things YOU claim make it better are not exclusive to you.

    Life, liberty and happiness are not American things.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    "The American Dream is far from dead, but it's not being aided by emerging so******ts. People still flock to this country to pursue a life they could never have dreamed of anywhere else. People still come here to live a prejudice free life or simply one where they don't have to be afraid of their government killing them in the middle of the night."

    Care to point out where anything in there is false? America, as a nation, was built as a capitalist society. It's what allowed us to get to where we were today. So******m, however you want to define it, does in fact take away what makes our country part of what it is. It can't be argued, it's fact. People also still do come here, every day, to escape from a life they weren't happy with. Still waiting for the false material here, my man.
    People flock to England to pursue those things too. It's a portal, more or less. It's a portal for people the way America is a portal for closer-to-home immigrants looking for a better life. People from Mexico may seek better living in the States the same as people from many other countries seek asylum in England.

    What YOU are talking about is people moving from war torn or politically unstable countries, to America, and being thrilled that their government isn't going to kill them. Yes, anyone would find that wonderful. That isn't American freedom, that's called default freedom. Everyone that doesn't live in a war torn or oppressive country has that. I have that. I was not born with any less freedom.

    I was born not having to recite a pledge of allegiance to a country and/or God, when I may not necessarily care for either. You read news stories all the time about kids getting in trouble for not reciting it, not supporting troops etc. These are freedoms. The freedom to choose. You seem to have been brainwashed into thinking America is the only country with this, as you EXPLICITLY claimed. THAT is false.

    I have every freedom you have, plus more. Ask me when was the last time I had a healthcare bill. "When was the last time you had a healthcare bill?" Never, Strider.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    As for my story, you can't debate with that. It's true, and it's inspirational, atleast to me.

    "Pull your heads out of your sheeple butts and stop pretending for a second that America has disappeared or abandoned what we once stood for. We've had some hiccups and we've hit some stumbling blocks, but at the end of the day we always get back up. Every day we, as a nation and as a people, work towards bettering ourselves and what we stand for. While I'm sure everyone would like to have those privileges, we, as Americans, know that we've been born with the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That right is guaranteed to no other people."

    So let's see.. I admit that we're once again not perfect. Check. I also don't pretend for one second to think of myself as better than another person. I simply defend an idea that has given me a fantastic life that I am blessed to have. A loving family, a fantastic education, and a safe environment to grow, live, and hopefully to one day raise my own family in.
    I could find stories like that about people coming to England. What's your point? Besides, don't talk to me about American heroism in 'Nam, Strider. For every success story there are many about how women were raped and coerced into marrying foreign because Vietnam was almost third world compared to America.

    The IDEA has NOT given you a fantastic life, family, education etc. YOU gave yourself that. Idiots, homeless etc don't have what you do. Go ask a homeless guy how he feels about the so-called land of opportunity. England never gave me anything I have, I earned what I have. I earned my degree, I earned my job placement etc. England never gave it to me.

    Are we better placed to have such things than other countries? Yes, if those other countries you refer to are Iran or Afghanistan. MANY, MANY countries offer the freedom to pursue what YOU call The American Dream. THAT is why everything you say is false.

    Be thankful you live in a country that allows it, BY ALL MEANS, please do. Just don't sit there acting like that's an American thing. It's not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Out of my entire first post, that is the ONLY section that has any form of patriotism in it. So what? Deal with it. Just because you, Norrin, don't believe in patriotism and just because you, Norrin, believe it to be wrong doesn't mean that anyone else does or has to. It's your opinion. The difference between you and I is that I respect your right to have that opinion. You, on the other hand, don't think that to be the case.
    I respect your right to be patriotic, but in this debate you're speaking for millions, billions even. Your patriotism stems from your belief that the things your country has "given" you are exclusive to America. Not only did your country not give them to you, but they are not exclusive. I found your post to be worth replying to, not because I don't respect your right to be patriotic, but because you were matter-of-factly saying something that is observably, inarguably and grossly untrue. That being that no other country's people have what Americans do. We do, many of us, and then some.

    There's no tax in Switzerland for one thing. I'm sure they'd argue that they have something over America, and we already know how Britain differs. Are there things wrong with our countries? Yes. In terms of opportunity, though, we have either equal restrictions or equal freedom. Yours is no superior.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Norrin, your post was not an arguement. It was you blindly ranting about how you hate this or that. You didn't rebuttal anything but simply stated your apparently undying hatred towards an idea that you don't have to agree with. But that doesn't mean it's wrong or that others can't.

    I expected more from you..
    You expected MORE of me? Odd. So very odd. You expected different to what you got, yet...you claim you read many of my posts and I "always" do this. So...which is it? Do you even know what you believe, know or want to debate right now? I don't think you do. At all.

    Blind ranting? I'm afraid not. I never came through with a petulant piece of childishness in lieu of a counter. No, that's what you did. I countered you precisely, concisely and oh, so nicely. I did it before, I've done it now and I will continue doing it as long as you continue to bring such a terribly flawed, untrue and emotional/irrational basis to this debate.

    Was that "Norrin" enough for you?

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    ^^^^^^^^^
    lol oh shit haha

    Bravo.
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    You're entire arguement (and I won't lie here, you calling my posts emotionally based is quite amusing.. pot calling the kettle black, anyone?) is based off the fact that you believe I stated only America has those freedoms. That only America can do any, and apparently every,thing that I stated. You're grossly mistaken. You're letting your quite apparent anger blind you from seeing that.

    I merely defended my country from the standard OnRPG onslaught of hating America, Republicans, etc. It's always the same, and sometimes I just feel a little bit of interjection is in order. Do the English have those rights? Sure they do. Are those inherent rights written in to their written law and constitution? Not so much. Did I state that America was ever better than anyone else? No, I didn't. Your whole little arguement about Vietnam was also made null and void when I stated that even I can point out several horrific and repulsive situations that American's have brought about. But no other nation or people is any better.

    I NEVER said that America was better, had more rights, liberties, or anything of the sort. I simply stated it was a concept written in to our law and that we were born with. You, on the other hand, decided to run gung-ho with the idea that I claimed America to be superior. Way to completely misread any and all intentions of that first post.

    Also, why do you simply think that England having a universal healthcare system makes it better? Call it expensive, call it dumb, but America still has the most superior quality of healthcare in the world. This is not the place or time for this conversation, but since I know you'll just love to point this out, let me make it perfectly clear that I do NOT believe we have a good healthcare system at the moment. It is flawed, broken, expensive, and a drain. Something has to be done, clearly.

    And how childish do you have to be to actually factor in people "agreeing" with you on something? So three people said they disagree with my view. What do I care? OnRPG has never been conservative or American friendly. Of course you're going to have more people on your side. But I'm not fighting for popularity or whatever it is your first paragraph claims you have that I don't.

    Lasty, since I am about to go to bed, I'd like to point this out on your end:

    "You can't sit there and act like this is a unified effort toward a better, collective world...with the ARROGANT asterisk of, "...but ours is better." Especially when the things YOU claim make it better are not exclusive to you."

    Re-read my post. I never said anything about "ours is better," or whatever. And once again, I never, in any of my posts, stated that those rights were exclusive to America. I'd have thought that you, of all people, would know the difference between something being exclusive and something being guaranteed.

    And actually, no, that wasn't "Norrin" enough for me. Your posts are usually more perceptive and don't put words in people's mouths.




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    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    You're entire arguement (and I won't lie here, you calling my posts emotionally based is quite amusing.. pot calling the kettle black, anyone?) is based off the fact that you believe I stated only America has those freedoms. That only America can do any, and apparently every,thing that I stated. You're grossly mistaken. You're letting your quite apparent anger blind you from seeing that.

    I merely defended my country from the standard OnRPG onslaught of hating America, Republicans, etc. It's always the same, and sometimes I just feel a little bit of interjection is in order. Do the English have those rights? Sure they do. Are those inherent rights written in to their written law and constitution? Not so much. Did I state that America was ever better than anyone else? No, I didn't. Your whole little arguement about Vietnam was also made null and void when I stated that even I can point out several horrific and repulsive situations that American's have brought about. But no other nation or people is any better.
    I don't HATE Americans, I hate ignorance. You displayed heavy, massive ignorance, so I countered you.

    You claimed that NOBODY else has those rights. I countered. Now you're admitting they do. NOW you're saying, "Is it written in their constitution?" No, it isn't. Does it need to be? No. SHOULD it be? No. Why? Because it takes all sorts to make a nation. Not everyone's religious and not everyone will love the country. I love London. I don't love London cos I was born here, because it "gave" me anything. I GREW to love it through experience. Impartial experience. Loving a country because you are born there is just ridiculous. If you wanna do it, then by all means do so, but it's illogical.

    If you love it because of the opportunities you are afforded due to living there, great. So am I. Lesson learned? Don't act like it's an American thing. Far from acting like it, you SAID it.

    The constitution is a contradiction. It touts freedom, but it includes a pledge to God and country. What if you don't want to do that? You don't have to, right? The pledge is optional? Well then why is it even there? That's like Steve Jobs saying, "Just hold your iPhone differently if you have signal trouble." A simple solution, sure, but Apple cocked it up, so why should I have to work around their mistake? Just fix it. Same with the constitution. If it's ok to not pledge allegiance, why even have it? Britain doesn't have one and we're not crumbling at the foundation. "It's tradition! It's history!", many will cry. Tradition is nothing but another word for the collective habit. The British Monarchy are part of our tradition and our history, but they're also f*cking irrelevant. They cost our citizens money and the fact that they AREN'T abolished is disgraceful.

    People say, "Oh come on, it's not that much money into your taxes anyway." So what? They shouldn't be there.

    If people wanna recite a pledge, let them. Having it as an institution is simply saying, "You don't have to say it...but you're sort of a ***** if you don't."

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    I NEVER said that America was better, had more rights, liberties, or anything of the sort. I simply stated it was a concept written in to our law and that we were born with. You, on the other hand, decided to run gung-ho with the idea that I claimed America to be superior. Way to completely misread any and all intentions of that first post.
    No, you said no other people have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That is, inarguably, false.

    A greased weasel couldn't slip out of that one. What you said was wrong.

    If you were to argue that it's written in your constitution? Yes, but as I've proven, that is 100% and totally irrelevant to living and to life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Also, why do you simply think that England having a universal healthcare system makes it better? Call it expensive, call it dumb, but America still has the most superior quality of healthcare in the world. This is not the place or time for this conversation, but since I know you'll just love to point this out, let me make it perfectly clear that I do NOT believe we have a good healthcare system at the moment. It is flawed, broken, expensive, and a drain. Something has to be done, clearly.
    Yeah...see, the thing with that is, the Great Ormond Street Childrens' Hospital (In London, for home viewers) became something like the 2nd hospital in history to grow a human trachea/windpipe and successfully transplant it into a child. Whether yours is superior or not, ours isn't so far behind that it being free is a sacrifice of quality.

    If they can grow a windpipe, I'm pretty sure they've got everything else covered, in all practicality. If you can name an American hospital with as much revered history as the Royal London, then please do.

    Next.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    And how childish do you have to be to actually factor in people "agreeing" with you on something? So three people said they disagree with my view. What do I care? OnRPG has never been conservative or American friendly. Of course you're going to have more people on your side. But I'm not fighting for popularity or whatever it is your first paragraph claims you have that I don't.
    I'm not factoring it in, nor do I care, but you were the one bringing up "people" and "respect". "People" are agreeing with me and giving ME rep, while you're being called ignorant and being disagreed with. I'm just saying that it's not a route YOU should be going down at this juncture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Str1der View Post
    Lasty, since I am about to go to bed, I'd like to point this out on your end:

    "You can't sit there and act like this is a unified effort toward a better, collective world...with the ARROGANT asterisk of, "...but ours is better." Especially when the things YOU claim make it better are not exclusive to you."

    Re-read my post. I never said anything about "ours is better," or whatever. And once again, I never, in any of my posts, stated that those rights were exclusive to America. I'd have thought that you, of all people, would know the difference between something being exclusive and something being guaranteed.

    And actually, no, that wasn't "Norrin" enough for me. Your posts are usually more perceptive and don't put words in people's mouths.
    Again with the contradictions. First you tell me I go around proclaiming everything I say is the divine truth (False, lies and putting words in my mouth), then you insist that I am angry, continually (Words in my mouth). Yet, you close out your post with, "You don't usually put words in peoples' mouthes." You really have the consistency of runny porridge.

    YOU stated that life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are things no other people have. YOU acted like your Vietnam sob story was unique to America, as if it could only have happened involving America. You've either explicitly stated or explicitly implied these things.

    None of them are true by any stretch. If you MEANT to say that no other country has it written down, constitutionally, then say what you mean next time. Even so, I've dealt with that argument to.

    Like I said, all day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
    I do love that.

    "I've read many threads of yours." followed by, "You proclaim yourself to be the divine truth in each case." One statement followed by a factually and grossly incorrect claim. I've never done that. I'm only right by fact if facts are there to make me right.
    Don't want to get involved with the rest of the argument, but this is demonstratively false. Remember that argument we had about moral subjectivity/objectivity (where we weren't really even arguing over the particular point?)
    http://www.onrpg.com/boards/168361-post2386159/

    We spent pages arguing about whether you were using circular reasoning, and not providing any argument at all and after pages and pages, you rounded it out by using circular reasoning again, then said "Well, you're not even really arguing with me, so this is pointless.". (Where you essentially said morals are subjective, because they are)

    I agree with you, that it was pointless, but don't act like you never just made a statement with nothing to back it up.
    THIS MA SIGNATURE

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    Every single time I debate morals, I have everything backing me up. I never make any statements about moral subjectivity with nothing to back me. I've had the debate enough to have enough ammo in my clip.

    You weren't seeing that and you were incorrectly insisting it was circular reasoning, OR, playing Devil's advocate. So, considering we agreed on the overall point, I simply chose to end it because it was pointless to continue. I don't debate with pragmatists anymore, it's a waste of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd View Post
    Every single time I debate morals, I have everything backing me up. I never make any statements about moral subjectivity with nothing to back me. I've had the debate enough to have enough ammo in my clip.
    You certainly didn't bring any of it out. You didn't cite one argument in favour, you merely kept repeating a fallacy. (It is because it is.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd
    You weren't seeing that and you were incorrectly insisting it was circular reasoning, OR, playing Devil's advocate. So, considering we agreed on the overall point, I simply chose to end it because it was pointless to continue. I don't debate with pragmatists anymore, it's a waste of time.
    ... Norrin. Look at the post. I will not have you sidestep this one. What does this say?

    Quote Originally Posted by Norrin Radd
    Morals are entirely subjective. Fact. No use sitting there saying, "I agree, others don't, and they are EDUCATED." So what? Bring them here and let's see what they say, because then someone with opposing morals will disagree and their argument will be in ruins.
    You said this. Please explain to me how this is not circular reasoning (or any of your other posts in that thread). You say their argument will be in ruins, merely because someone will have an opposing view. This is circular logic, because you're making the assumption that their view is equally valid, because morals are subjective. This is circular reasoning. Why do you say it is not?

    I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll let you respond, and then we'll take this to PMs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eriond View Post
    You certainly didn't bring any of it out. You didn't cite one argument in favour, you merely kept repeating a fallacy. (It is because it is.)



    ... Norrin. Look at the post. I will not have you sidestep this one. What does this say?



    You said this. Please explain to me how this is not circular reasoning (or any of your other posts in that thread). You say their argument will be in ruins, merely because someone will have an opposing view. This is circular logic, because you're making the assumption that their view is equally valid, because morals are subjective. This is circular reasoning. Why do you say it is not?

    I don't want to derail this thread, so I'll let you respond, and then we'll take this to PMs.
    I'm not gonna side-step it. I'll do you on better.

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    Wow. This thread is absurd. I think y'all shoudl take it to PMs, because it doesn't look good when mods, retired staff and gaming journalists are getting into a battle royale. You can tell me it's a civil debate, but it looks like anything but


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