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Thread: If ghosts are real, is God too?

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    Default If ghosts are real, is God too?

    I just spent several hours watching a show called "The Haunting Of...<insert celebrity name here>."

    Basic Summary: This medium and host, Kim Russo, takes a celebrity back to the place where he/she had a paranormal experience. Throughout the episode, she not only uncovers the reasons or potential reasons why the spirits caused a haunting, but she also speaks on behalf of relatives of each celebrity. She pulls out names of the relatives, specific gestures of the relatives, times, and personal events and conversations, all that would not be known to anyone but the celebrity.

    While each episode engulfed me and fascinated me greatly, I spent the whole time wondering if the medium somehow heavily researched the celebrities extensively prior to filming and/or if the celebrities were acting, or if she is a legit medium.

    If it is an act, they did a really good job convincing me.

    But if she really is a medium and can communicate with the dead, this means several things for me I'm not sure I'm willing to accept:

    1. God is real.
    2. If God is real, does that mean I have to follow religious dogma?
    3. I don't want to follow religious dogma.
    4. I don't want to exist in an afterlife.
    5. I don't want to be in "limbo" when I die.
    6. Don't take my comfortable atheism away from me!
    7. Aww shit, I'm mindfvcked.

    Although, part of me KIND OF likes the idea that my grandmother may be able to hear me when I speak aloud. I have a lot of guilt and hatred towards myself. I was her caretaker for the last couple months she was alive. I'm only hopeful for the chance to redeem myself. I want to make her proud, and I want to know that she isn't angry at me.

    Fellow atheists/agnostics, do you believe in ghosts? If so, how do you rationalize the existence of ghosts with the nonexistence of God?

    Religious/God-natured fellows, do you believe in ghosts? If not, how do you rationalize the nonexistence of ghosts with the existence of God?

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    I think some religions don't believe in the afterlife, or believe you don't exist until you are rezzed. I don't believe in ghosts because I haven't seen any indication to believe I should believe in ghosts. I have a hunch ghosts don't exists because I assume ghosts would require human souls to exist, and I am almost certain that I don't have a soul. Maybe some other guy has a soul so he can get a ghost and stuff. I'd have to hear the recordings (voices) and see the holograms (ghosts) and witness the magnetism (psychokinesis) before bothering to consider the existence of ghosts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-Roh View Post
    How does any of that connect to the existence of god?
    Well for starters, it would indicate that the existence of intelligent life not based on solid and liquid states of elements from the periodic table is possible. This would lower skepticism surrounding any "God"s defined as being non solid/liquid periodic table of elements based... Many theists believe that God is energy-based (not carbon-based) and that if there were a carbon-based God on Earth then we'd have already detected him/her/it. I.e. Many theists believe that the "God" they worship is made out of the same substance as ghosts. So evidence of intelligent ghosts would provide the basis for a scientific model explaining an intelligent "God".

    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-Roh View Post
    In no way does that mean that they are dead or that there is a god, simply because there is more to life after death.
    Well whether God exists or not, what is the point of believing in God if people don't have an afterlife? (Other than social and morale benefits (not moral - I said morale).) For the people who believe that we don't meet God until after death, believing that we have no afterlife defeats the point of believing in meeting God after you die since that'd be a paradox to experience something when you don't exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-Roh View Post
    It is fact that the human mind can trick itself into seeing things that are not really there. Thus I conclude due to this fact, that while I have seen ghosts, they were not actually there.
    Hue. I have felt the presence of God, and heard God speak, and seen the miracles of God, and been comforted by God, and conversed with God. Yet God doesn't exist so I was hallucinating (like when people fap, or imagine the plot for a fiction novel). I have also spoken to Santa Claus and Jesus-in-heaven and various anime characters, but contrary to my imagination the laws of Physics still hold.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kashis View Post
    A more logical explanation for the kinds of supernatural events that happen are just things yet to be understand about this world. Humans aren't exactly the most perceptive creatures
    You have evidence of supernatural events? Share your sources with us so we can appease our curiosity.

    Actually - even if there were intelligent life not based on the known elements, then we'd still have found it, because we have radio/microwave/infrared/UV/X-ray/gamma ray sensors, we have eyes, and we have religious people. So if a religious person found evidence of God then they'd easily be able to spread that knowledge. **** we even have a neutrino detector. But no reliable contact with God except human imagination. And if the God in your imagination is not the same God as someone else's, then that fulfils the definition of "imaginary" - existing only in the imagination..

    So... Next topic: If zombies are real..?
    Last edited by Phenoca; 01-05-2014 at 08:49 AM.

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    How does any of that connect to the existence of god? No really, I have no clue how you made that connection. In the infinite unknown of the universe, there may very well be ghosts, or at least beings that we believe to be ghosts. In no way does that mean that they are dead or that there is a god, simply because there is more to life after death. Even if god were real, that does not mean that a religion, or any religion for that matter is correct. Nor does that mean there is a limbo. Being a ghost could very well be heaven or hell, if such things exists. Now with that out of the way, I've seen ghosts. However, I deny the existence of such. It is fact that the human mind can trick itself into seeing things that are not really there. Thus I conclude due to this fact, that while I have seen ghosts, they were not actually there. Now, I do not deny the possibility that ghosts are real, I simply choose to follow what we consider to be proven reality until the facts say otherwise. I hold the same view with god(s), tho I've yet to see god(s) or anything associated with them.

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    Ghosts existing or not doesn't mean god exists or not. They can be two separate cases. Assuming one verifies the other is a mistake.

    A more logical explanation for the kinds of supernatural events that happen are just things yet to be understand about this world. Humans aren't exactly the most perceptive creatures on this planet when it comes to basic senses, especially in regards to sight, hearing and smell.

    As for the information the medium found out: it's more likely that research was done either beforehand or during the show and she's being fed the answers through a device. Or the people are actors and it's fake altogether as most these shows are.

    I don't believe in entities, they either exist or they don't. My belief doesn't make it so either way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenoca View Post
    I think some religions don't believe in the afterlife, or believe you don't exist until you are rezzed
    Like a proper gamer


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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-Roh View Post
    How does any of that connect to the existence of god? No really, I have no clue how you made that connection. In the infinite unknown of the universe, there may very well be ghosts, or at least beings that we believe to be ghosts. In no way does that mean that they are dead or that there is a god, simply because there is more to life after death.
    The first assumption I would associate with the existence of supernatural entities would be the high probability that God exists. I associate the afterlife with God and religion, because they are directly related in religious literature. God delegates the afterlife. Although literature is not instant-proof soup, I would be more inclined to believe the two correlate.

    Secondly, if the dead can roam the Earth mostly undetected and can communicate with the living, it's not so difficult to rationalize something as extreme as a deity: God.

    Thirdly, based on many paranormal programs I've watched, most of them, if not all, imply and relate the existence of God to paranormal activity by usage of specific terms, explanation, and practices, such as: exorcisms, crosses, angels, Heaven, Hell, demons, devil, Satan, etc. And sometimes, they just say God.

    Fourthly, I've seen programs depicting how atheists can't acquire a protection against the paranormal because they can't draw on God or angels to protect them, because they don't believe in it.

    Henceforth, I associate afterlife with God. They go hand-in-hand, to me.

    Furthermore, my thread was influenced by Kim Russo and her TV show. So let me clarify some important information Russo expresses. She can speak to the dead, which implies that there is an afterlife, which I feel also implies God exists, because I associate the afterlife with God. Russo blatantly speaks of angels, Heaven, Hell, and negative entities (probably AKA demons), which implies she believes in them, which also implies she believes in God. Although, I haven't seen an episode yet where she confirms her belief in God by stating it outright, but her website does.

    Therefore, I am inclined to believe God + Afterlife = Afterlife + God.
    Even if god were real, that does not mean that a religion, or any religion for that matter is correct.
    True, but I've provided at least two other reasons why I believe the two directly relate even if religious literature is null.

    Nor does that mean there is a limbo.
    In the program, Russo states that if a human isn't ready to die and feels incomplete before they die, they don't cross over to the "other side," but rather hover and cause the hauntings. I call this limbo, which is just another word for ghostworld afterlife. This applies to suicide victims too. Many suicide victims stay in limbo because many of them take their own lives simply because of an anguish they want to alleviate, not because they want to die necessarily. Nor did the suicide solve the victim's problem, causing them to hover with their burdens in the afterlife.

    Being a ghost could very well be heaven or hell, if such things exists.
    Sure, I can make-up anything I wanted, but I'm not. I'm analyzing and considering the medium's discoveries as truth.

    Now with that out of the way, I've seen ghosts. However, I deny the existence of such. It is fact that the human mind can trick itself into seeing things that are not really there. Thus I conclude due to this fact, that while I have seen ghosts, they were not actually there. Now, I do not deny the possibility that ghosts are real, I simply choose to follow what we consider to be proven reality until the facts say otherwise. I hold the same view with god(s), tho I've yet to see god(s) or anything associated with them.
    This generally sums up about how I felt prior to my "data" accumulation. I have no doubt that I will likely deny the possibility and continue to be a comfortable atheist. I always do. In the meantime, i must satiate my curiosity with others' provoking theories.

    My family has also claimed to have seen ghosts. I have not, although, I was told I was present during paranormal activity when I was so young that I can't remember. I rationalize that they were hallucinating.


    Quote Originally Posted by Kashis View Post
    Ghosts existing or not doesn't mean god exists or not. They can be two separate cases. Assuming one verifies the other is a mistake.
    I address why I associate the two above.
    A more logical explanation for the kinds of supernatural events that happen are just things yet to be understand about this world. Humans aren't exactly the most perceptive creatures on this planet when it comes to basic senses, especially in regards to sight, hearing and smell.
    Reading Phenoca's response to this statement made me realize that it's definitely possible humans haven't discovered every element and obviously the technology to discover such an element. Or whatever ghosts are, we have yet to discover explainable methods or the technology. As strange as it may seem, but this seems more far-fetched to me than the possibility of afterlife. Then again, the world is flat!

    As for the information the medium found out: it's more likely that research was done either beforehand or during the show and she's being fed the answers through a device. Or the people are actors and it's fake altogether as most these shows are.
    I don't know. I have the feeling it's legit, but it wouldn't surprise me as much as it would disappoint me if you were right.

    Some of the celebrities are actors, others are hosts or singers.

    I don't believe in entities, they either exist or they don't. My belief doesn't make it so either way.
    Ok.

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    The medium also is an actor, acting a damn script, to collect a paycheck.

    Thread over now?

    Stay frosty.

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    I was going to write a long post about not trying to connect things without either being proven or understood. I instead decided to reply short and sweet like to the thread title.

    Not necessarily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuxedoSam View Post
    The first assumption I would associate with the existence of supernatural entities would be the high probability that God exists. I associate the afterlife with God and religion, because they are directly related in religious literature. God delegates the afterlife. Although literature is not instant-proof soup, I would be more inclined to believe the two correlate.
    The real question to be asking is if the source material for your beliefs are even accurate themselves. Because if they aren't then everything you base your assumptions on are likely to be incorrect. And personally from reading through the Bible (which is what I'm assuming you are basing this off of) numerous times when I was younger, I'm inclined to believe that at the very least it makes some really far fetched assumptions to the methods and reasoning behind some of God's actions and what the authors claim God is capable of and does, should any of it happen to be true in the first place. While I cannot prove or deny the existence of spirits, a soul, the afterlife or even a supreme being(s), I can be ever doubtful of any text that is claimed to be the undeniable truth of them based on it's own existence.

    Another thing to note is that the Bible does not support the claim of ghosts or spirits that remain on Earth; when any human dies, they go to Heaven or Hell. We do not remain attached to the Earth when we die, we are judged by the lord in Heaven to be worthy to be in his presence or to be sent to Hell for eternity. That's how things work, according to the Bible.

    Where people get ghosts from isn't even from the Bible to begin with. No offense, but what you are saying is inconsistent with what the Bible teaches, as are many things people believe to be true.
    Last edited by Kashis; 01-05-2014 at 11:31 AM.
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    I would have made a large reply about the religious aspects your brought up, but Kashis already pointed out what I wanted to say. That being that most religions don't support the claims of mediums and the likes that bring said religions into the mix. Furthermore, what if the afterlife is actually another dimension to which souls transcend our own reality and accumulate into new beings that we call ghosts? These ghosts being able to slip through dimensions on rare occasions and interacting with the world around us. Maybe they themselves are not the humans they look like, rather they take said form due to interactions with human memories that allow them to take form to begin with. Maybe they themselves are not human. Hell, maybe we make ghosts and the actions of ghosts with our own minds with some form of mental power that we have yet to discover. Really, the possibilities are endless and most of them do not need god(s) and the afterlife to be real.

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    I don't believe in heaven or God by the conventional means, but I do believe we are all part of a higher consciousness. Our time spent in our meat puppets is temporary. We are all one, and everything is one. I don't necessarily believe that we ascend into some next level shit when we die, but we become the earth itself, thus realigning us with the cosmic ebb and flow of the universe. We all came from stardust, we will all return to stardust. It is beautiful on a level that no standard religion can offer me. I look into the stars at night, and despite not knowing anything about anything, I feel welcome and at home - not lost. :]

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    We all believe in different things. I my self believe in god. Aslo in demons as i have seen them. I know it sounds crazy. Ive seen them in the form of visions. They hunt me just about every night. Ive seen hell in visions and it is a bad place. But from what i have seen its fire there like the bible but i have seen other stuff as well. I feel the dead it seems. Because when i am alone i can feel this energy around me. Most of the time it is negative energy. Ive seen things while being awake that i cannot explain. Ive seen beings with black wings hovering over my bed. Im sure its the angel of death but not sure. I here things call out to me a lot but i cannot always make out to what they are saying. But yes there is a god. But there is a ton of beliefs out there. So which is right and which is wrong. Ive always been tought to believe in Jesus. But there could well be more then one spirit realm. Who knows. Only true way we will know is when we take our last breath. My self i will believe in god and learn my faith. But will not force it upon no one. Its for you choose to believe are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by duby View Post
    post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

    Not that I'm disagreeing with you. Whatever makes you feel alright dude...but what you just described is schizophrenia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oisterboy View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

    Not that I'm disagreeing with you. Whatever makes you feel alright dude...but what you just described is schizophrenia.
    i have been diagnosed schizophrenia many years ago. but i know what i feel man.

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    You feel an extreme chemical imbalance causing hallucinations and delusions. If believing in God helps you deal with all of that, more power to you dude. Perhaps that is what God is meant to be - the thing that comforts us.

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    if the christian god exists he either doesn't give a fvck or is malicious. stay far away from me.

    the supernatural is a different matter. i've never experienced any of it, but i don't think it doesn't exist, i guess. maybe it's just alien and people will never be able to truly understand it, if it exists.

    or maybe none of it exists and this is all, there is no meaning. that would honestly make the most sense.
    Last edited by postrook; 01-05-2014 at 04:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oisterboy View Post
    You feel an extreme chemical imbalance causing hallucinations and delusions. If believing in God helps you deal with all of that, more power to you dude. Perhaps that is what God is meant to be - the thing that comforts us.
    You need to change your name to Oisterbuddha.
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    Well, OP, now you've got to ask the question: Which God (or Gods/Goddesses) are the real God (or Gods/Goddesses)? Once you start believing that it might be true where does it end and where does it begin?

    # ᴛ ʜ ᴇ ʏ ᴄ ᴀ ʟ ʟ ᴍ ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ᴇ s ᴏ ʀ ᴄ ᴇ ʀ ᴇ ʀ s ᴜ ᴘ ʀ ᴇ ᴍ ᴇ ʙ ᴇ ᴄ ᴀ ᴜ s ᴇ ɪ ' ᴍ s ᴏ s ᴛ ʀ ᴀ ɴ ɢ ᴇ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuxedoSam View Post
    Reading Phenoca's response to this statement made me realize that it's definitely possible humans haven't discovered every element and obviously the technology to discover such an element. Or whatever ghosts are, we have yet to discover explainable methods or the technology. As strange as it may seem, but this seems more far-fetched to me than the possibility of afterlife. Then again, the world is flat!
    Oh come on - that is so cliché. Sure - go ahead and define God as some substance which we have no means of interacting with. Now you've just gone and defined God as nonexistent.

    You do know that matter particles and energy all obey the laws of Physics? But looking at a gopher hole and thinking "I do not know who created this hole - maybe God lives inside!!" gets tiresome after the 100th iteration. But good luck. If you redefine God as a small furry mammal who lives inside gopher holes, then you may just get lucky! Likewise, if you redefine God as an undiscovered substance unknown to science, then you might just find a new particle or wave function, and start worshipping it.

    As for discovering new elements - all elements are atoms, which are pretty well defined, and I think we have completely understood the most important parts about the hydrogen atom. Now if you have a Hadron Collider and want to smash atoms apart looking for smaller particles, then those are called elementary particles. It's ignorant that you'd confuse atoms with particles. A primary school kid could tell you that elements are atoms. If you want to learn about atoms go read about it. How many chemical engineers do you think go "ooh this element is talking to me!" and become religious after having conversations with their test tubes? None. We have discovered every ****ing element you ******. If it's not there in nature it can be synthesized or modelled. Oh and guess what? Atoms have a ****ing MASS. They can be interacted with. Implying that there's an undiscovered element which has never been detected yet which everyone becomes when they die and therefore God-exists is DUMB because elements are ATOMS and atoms are UNDERSTOOD. You are the only one who doesn't know what the **** an atom is. If you wanted to sound mysterious you have to say elementary particle.

    Oh - and dark matter? WHY THE **** DO YOU THINK I MENTIONED WE HAVE ****ING NEUTRINO DETECTORS.
    We can detect dark matter you ******.

    I said the world is flat to parody ignorant Dunning-Krugers.

    And before you say anything else - if it's on Wikipedia then that implies it's already detectable.

    Quote Originally Posted by postrook View Post
    if the christian god exists he either doesn't give a fvck or is malicious.
    Yep. While we're synonymously supposed to believe he is benevolent and caring - which is a contradiction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phanein View Post
    Well, OP, now you've got to ask the question: Which God (or Gods/Goddesses) are the real God (or Gods/Goddesses)? Once you start believing that it might be true where does it end and where does it begin?
    Good point. Everyone has a different definition of God. I believe in the gopher-version.
    Last edited by Phenoca; 01-06-2014 at 05:13 AM. Reason: mean words

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    Quote Originally Posted by ApocaRUFF View Post
    You need to change your name to Oisterbuddha.

    I like that!

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    Answering the topic title...I say no, I don't think it follows.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oisterboy View Post
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizophrenia

    Not that I'm disagreeing with you. Whatever makes you feel alright dude...but what you just described is schizophrenia.
    It's actually breathtakingly easy to cause the human mind to perceive whatever you want.

    Give me an hour of your time a day and I can have you boning succubi by the end of the month.


    Quote Originally Posted by ApocaRUFF View Post
    You need to change your name to Oisterbuddha.
    Just for the record, nothing he said had much to do with Buddhism, which I would argue is a more interesting religion than most.
    Last edited by Bacn; 01-06-2014 at 04:53 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phenoca View Post
    We have discovered every ****ing element you ******.
    http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/04/world/...inkId=20070708

    Oh gosh, it appears as though TuxedoSam was right. Check that updated periodic table, bltch!

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