Raise kids to not be ashamed of habits that supposedly only specific genders should have.
And yeah, as pessimistic as it is, as long as humanity thrives there will never be ideal equality.
Heck, just saying that kinda gets the idea of some awkward utopian world.
I'll give you that, we've made progress in noticeable ways.
Women can vote, women can drive, women can have jobs that were once only for men.
The world as a whole is pretty crappy, and obviously not just towards women, but the whole situation certainly isn't all good for men either.
Well, maybe politicians to an extent...those guys seem pretty well off.
The thing I am talking about is grandeur. If you don't treat men and woman as equal, you have just "explained away" the actual possibility that there might be a problem and that people can solve it.
I hope you don't feel like I am hijacking your thread to much by my posts, I guess one in every 20ish people who opens the tread reads one of them.
The idea of "revolution against the establishment" ended when woman got voting rights (see, one another "stop reading this" sentence, right? Why bother thinking about what revolution means when we can be smug and superior, by prejudice? Revolution means replacement of the government. Just pointing that out.). Its sad that people just use the "culture" argument towards things like rape. Rape is a crime. In the US it even gets your branded for life. However as a guy, my right to find that detail inhumane is pretty much forfeit, right?
Let me set one fact straight: I will take a long deep thought before I vote for a politician who doesn't give me full say on a topic. Full say means 100% right to decide what I think is right on my own and the ability to stand for it in public. I pretty much knew, that I was walking out onto the thin ice, by even expressing an opinion here. I can't possibly vote for feminists that do not grant my word full weight. The "you can't know, cause you are a guy" does not deserve any support. I am sorry.
Everybody just makes rape into one issue with wage gaps and woman's right to choose as well as contraception and you also lost my vote in the process. Now tell me that isn't holding society back.
That's why we need a definite distinction between vocal and violent opposition to female rights and rape, sexual abuse of minors, domestic abuse and the protection of pregnant woman, or the hiring gap. It's not a blanket issue. If I am not for hiring quotas (this is an example, I think quotas could be worth exploring, probably to be lifted after a number of decades), I am not automatically part of a culture, that commits honor killings, or beats woman. It's not "male culture", that needs to be shut down and no I am not responsible for rape, if I don't vote women who deliberately make this into a gender war issue, when such a thing does not exist, into office.
Last edited by Ronin; 01-25-2014 at 01:39 AM.
I can understand frustration from the, "You can't know, because you're a guy." argument, but I'm not sure if there are any good ways to "know" except maybe compare similar situations.
I'm not sure how to comment on the idea that a man that understands that rape is inhumane doesn't matter.
On an individual basis it's a great thing to recognize that it's a horrible thing to do and to not do it or support anyone who does.
It's just that so many men, and yes, even WOMEN don't fully understand this simple fact, even in the USA.
I've seen news stories of rape victims and their family scared out of town because they dared to try to get justice against the popular people that committed the crime, women obviously helping with the harassment.
So even though it is mostly men committing these crimes, both men and women have been known to just make it worse with their attitudes towards the victims.
See I can do it to, call basically everyone who dares to speak against what I say a rapist. I actually am not meaning what I said before. The only thing I am saying is that people, all of them are equal and we as individuals need to let go of short-term instinctual (or learned reflex) selfishness. Otherwise we only circle on the spot. I don't see how I could make an example here that is better than this conversation. This is not about the emotional feeling of victory, we get when we shut some idiot up (we are getting pretty close to the hostile community story again). This is about making everyone talk and listen.
I know this sounds so much as if I am trying to make this about me, that it's cringe-worthy. In a way it might just be... Still that I wrote this post just now comes from the fact that I was just browsing the DeadSpin blog, just to find an article on a rape followed suicide. It's disillusioning.
Last edited by Ronin; 01-25-2014 at 12:35 PM.
For sure there are men who don't vocalize molestation and rape, but let's think logically. Men are just not raped as much as women. Not even close. Most women do not partake in rape because 1.) We are, in most cases, not physically capable. 2.) We're not interested in it. You don't need an abundance of statistics to know this is a fact. Just exist with an open-mind and you will gradually come to agree.
I am NOT saying that women don't and have not sexually assaulted.
Nor am I biased towards women. Rape is horrendous to every individual it affects, regardless of gender. But don't suggest that the percentage of men is even close to the percentage of women. It's not.
People who try to suggest such opposition and ideas typically hate the fact that their own gender is responsible for more of <insert crime here>, so they try to equalize the scale by deluding themselves with false/illogical/irrelevant comparisons. This applies to both men and women. I am against this type of misinformation because it's not factual, and essentially a lie, it's regressive, and it facilitates the misinformed's loathing. I'm sure there are other negatives that I have not mentioned.
Expanding further, I don't believe in making shit up just so we can make ourselves feel better. More women are raped than men. More men commit crimes than women. Women are physically weaker than men. Women have periods every month. All of these statements are facts. Don't cover it up with delusions. Acknowledge them and either create coping mechanisms to accept them or discover means to repair and prevent. To be honest, every statement I posted negatively affects women more than men, yet I don't hate men and I don't try to delude myself with lies so I can be equal where I'll never be equal.
Lastly, if every single person who has been raped was comfortable enough to seek a rape shelter, the number of women would still be overwhelmingly skewed. Therefore, "there's a reason rape and violence shelters rarely need to offer their services to men" is still accurate.
Moreover, do you even know that person in that image you posted? Or did you steal someone's image because it accurately represented your emotions?
It's true, men and women will never be fully equal in all regards, and I'm okay with that. But the areas men and women CAN be equal, in logical regards, we should be.
I also agree that men face sexism and both men and women create and facilitate injustices. There's no question there and I don't believe anyone has denied that. Granted, I haven't read every single post, so forgive me if I overlooked such comments.
Men and women are not equal at all They should have equal rights, every human being deserves the same rights. The right to do whatever they please as long as it is not harming another individual or another individuals property. Genetically they are two very different creatures and need to be treated as such.
Yes, everyone deserves equal civil rights. And yes, men and women are different and should be treated accordingly in some aspects, but we're not completely different. After being apart of many male-dominated forums and other social settings, and having two brothers, I believe men and women are generally the same with some differences apart from the physical. We all experience the same or similar emotions. We just may have slightly different ways of approaching and responding to certain situations, which I feel is learned rather than biological. And our interests, in terms of both social/relationship desires and material desires, are generally the same with slight differences.
Also, as a reply to previous posts, I feel men and women should raise their children with a little bit of both gender's treatment. We need not baby our children too much, but we also need to teach them that they can vent, verbally express their emotions, and rely on others. It's also okay to buy your daughter boy toys and clothes if she wants them and vice versa. Men and women are different, but we don't need to intentionally segregate each other when it's not necessary.
How did we get from sexist comments on the internet to harassment of rape victims? Prior to anyone discussing rape, I made the point that if your complaint is that lustful men want to have sex with you, then you accomplish nothing by assuming that 100% of men want to have sex with you. It elevates your perspective of the problem because whether they are married or gay, you are going to hate men for (supposedly) being sexually attracted to you.
Feminism is about political change. Of COURSE rape should be illegal everywhere. Of COURSE cutting-up womens' bodies with knives should be illegal everywhere. But I was discussing sexist comments on the internet. Rape and cutting-up people's bodies are ALREADY illegal, and criminals face SERIOUS punishment. I feel that by equating serious extreme crimes human rights violations with sexist comments on the internet, you are not acknowledging the source of the problem which is that young people are taught that females are inferior. I was NOT discussing rape. I was discussing sexism. And my primary focus was sexism on the internet, because it is something that I identify as an issue. My point was that assuming that everyone wants to have sex with you is NOT going to solve the angst against people treating women as inferior, or men being lustful towards women.
Calling every five-year old boy who discriminates against girls a "rapist condoner" is hypocritically sexist. Yes people should be taught good manners. Manners are important! And yes seeing females as inferior is at the root of the problem. But making men inferior by telling every guy with poor manners that he is a rapist is just spreading hate and hypocritically belittling the other gender.
Having a thick skin towards sexism on the internet is not synonymous with feminism, and in my previous posts, nobody had been discussing rape. If you want to have a discussion about foreign policy on gender equality then go ahead. But don't go up to everyone you meet and tell them they want to have sex with you and are therefore evil. I grew-up in a religion where lust was the pinnacle of all evil, and humans were supposedly controlled by evil supernatural demons who wanted people to have sex. I don't need any more of that superstitious demonization bullshit.
I read what all of you have said and agree with most of everyone's points even though they are disagreeing with each other, everyone is bringing-up important data. But I notice that whenever someone on the internet stands-up for equality between genders, they are IMMEDIATELY shunned by males AND females alike for being a horny "white-knight". How hypocritical to shun pro-feminists in the name of feminism. You think it's only females who get trashtalked? Interesting experiment: Go to the forum/VoIP/IRC you get trolled on for being a girl, hide your gender, and then see how many people STILL trashtalk you.
I.M.H.O. the solution to sexism on the internet is to use good manners. Of course guys will call me a ****ing white knight, but when the people I'm being polite towards also call me a lustful white knight who wants to get in their pants, then they are fantasizing their own world of gender-inequalities.
How do I turn off signatures while reading?