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Thread: Arizona Law Makers Approve Anti-Gay Bill

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    Default Arizona Law Makers Approve Anti-Gay Bill

    So...

    Arizona's Legislature has passed a controversial bill that would allow business owners, as long as they assert their religious beliefs, to deny service to gay and lesbian cust****s...
    I don't understand how something like this could be passed. All a person has to say is
    "God doesn't approve of you!" and they can basically slam the door on people.

    Not just LGBT people. It opens the door for infinite douche-baggery.

    Ever been divorced?
    Maybe not. Maybe your spouse just has a different skin tone?
    Had an abortion?
    Baby out of wedlock? Too bad single mommy doesn't get groceries!
    Like to drink a little too much on weekends?
    Jewish?
    Yell "GOD DAMN!" when you stub your toe?

    We'll if you are ever in Arizona, you may be f*cked.
    Last edited by FarmerM; 02-23-2014 at 06:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    So...
    I don't understand how something like this could be passed. All a person has to say is
    "God doesn't approve of you!" and they can basically slam the door on people.

    Not just LBGT people. It opens the door for infinite douche-baggery.

    Ever been divorced?
    Maybe not. Maybe your spouse just has a different skin tone?
    Had an abortion?
    Baby out of wedlock? Too bad single mommy doesn't get groceries!
    Like to drink a little too much on weekends?
    Jewish?
    Yell "GOD DAMN!" when you stub your toe?
    You forgot "woman?" pretty much in general these days with all those radical "don't follow men orders" movements going on.

    # ᴛ ʜ ᴇ ʏ ᴄ ᴀ ʟ ʟ ᴍ ᴇ ᴛ ʜ ᴇ s ᴏ ʀ ᴄ ᴇ ʀ ᴇ ʀ s ᴜ ᴘ ʀ ᴇ ᴍ ᴇ ʙ ᴇ ᴄ ᴀ ᴜ s ᴇ ɪ ' ᴍ s ᴏ s ᴛ ʀ ᴀ ɴ ɢ ᴇ.

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    Sorry you're not making that withdrawal from your bank account today. CUZ UR GAY

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    Why shouldn't business owners be able to choose who they do business with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkald View Post
    Why shouldn't business owners be able to choose who they do business with?
    Hmm, good point. If I was anti-gay I wouldn't want to serve them. But it's still discriminatory :/

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    Maybe they should just make gay people use separate services? Maybe make them use separate water fountains and such?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    Maybe they should just make gay people use separate services? Maybe make them use separate water fountains and such?
    Jim crow laws but for gays? NOPE

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    Good.

    Let the now imaginary money flow through them now as a token of Gods and their gratitude!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    Maybe they should just make gay people use separate services? Maybe make them use separate water fountains and such?
    There's a difference between public goods and private businesses. If someone wants to do less business and make less money because they have a problem with gay people, I say more power to them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkald View Post
    Why shouldn't business owners be able to choose who they do business with?
    Yeah, totally. Why should it be a requirement that a group of people have a set of living conditions that ensure they have a sustainable supply of required goods to live? In fact, why shouldn't we just make it so it is illegal to service said people so that they are forced to commit crimes to survive and/or die off? It's not like this is one of the basic columns on top of the American foundation. We should just go back 100 years and remove their basic human rights, thus allowing these people to be murdered and enslaved due to a lack of protection from the law. Let's just make it so that everyone who isn't a straight white Christian isn't even considered a human being. How does that sound, TheSkald?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jin-Roh View Post
    Yeah, totally. Why should it be a requirement that a group of people have a set of living conditions that ensure they have a sustainable supply of required goods to live? In fact, why shouldn't we just make it so it is illegal to service said people so that they are forced to commit crimes to survive and/or die off? It's not like this is one of the basic columns on top of the American foundation. We should just go back 100 years and remove their basic human rights, thus allowing these people to be murdered and enslaved due to a lack of protection from the law. Let's just make it so that everyone who isn't a straight white Christian isn't even considered a human being. How does that sound, TheSkald?
    It sounds like exaggeration to the point of irrelevance.
    Last edited by $$$; 02-23-2014 at 11:10 PM.

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    The right wing bastards will try to push it through as being intended by the first amendment.
    Using religion and law to discriminate and breed hate. What a wonderful world.

    There's no reason to deny someone service just because they have different beliefs.
    Other than petty, childish hate.

    It really seems like something that would be passed during 1920-1970.
    Where anyone who wasn't a white Christian male was basically screwed.
    I can just see the black people being tuned away at the local diner.

    It's really a no win situation for non-Christians and minorities in general.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkald View Post
    Why shouldn't business owners be able to choose who they do business with?
    First they came for the So******ts, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a So******t.
    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out-- Because I was not a Jew.
    Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

    Even if it doesnt come to that, every step on that path is a step into the wrong direction. How can you say it's ok for a shop to not provide a service to people based on race gender or orientation, wth...

    People have a totally ****ed up idea what a "free market is". A free market is a market where everyone can compete for a service, both buying and selling. It's not "do what you want". There is no place for shadow spots. The free market is not a choice, it's enforced. Individual players don't form a free market. If they are allowed to act individually, their natural center of gravity is price dictation by monopolies. That means having no market at all.

    Free market =\= Anarchism...

    If you are an Anarchist, good for you, you'll still get service. Ideas and words are free. Acts come with responsibility and consequence. In your private life, you are free, in your political life, you are free, but in your commercial life, it's the market that's free, not you.
    You can vote against that, but you can't act against it. Finally let's all hope it stays that way forever. In a perfect world, nobody "picks" a cust****.
    Last edited by Ronin; 02-24-2014 at 12:27 AM.

    Stay frosty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheSkald View Post
    There's a difference between public goods and private businesses. If someone wants to do less business and make less money because they have a problem with gay people, I say more power to them.
    You don't exactly peddle sex toys to children, so why be up in arms about a group of people declining to do business with people that don't fit their demographic anyway?
    "Rules do not exist to bind you, they exist so you may know your freedoms"

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    It's a slippery slope to modern day Jim Crow laws. The argument "who cares if a restaurant owner doesn't want to serve gays?" is shortsighted because it allows business owners to freely discriminate based on personal bigotry, with the support of State law. Imagine if Olive Garden had a sign that said "No Queers or Negroes, Because God Hates You". This law basically allows that. It's not a good image for modern, progressive America.

    You're also going to hear retorts from the Right-wing that sound like "well if the gays don't like it, they can just leave Arizona". Which is the same as saying "the gays should just leave Arizona" or "blacks should just go back to Africa".

    It's 2014, we have a black president. Let's try not to erase decades of civil right's movements.

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    This will eventually hit the supreme court at some point and they will shit all over it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktillum View Post
    It's a slippery slope to modern day Jim Crow laws. The argument "who cares if a restaurant owner doesn't want to serve gays?" is shortsighted because it allows business owners to freely discriminate based on personal bigotry, with the support of State law. Imagine if Olive Garden had a sign that said "No Queers or Negroes, Because God Hates You". This law basically allows that. It's not a good image for modern, progressive America.

    You're also going to hear retorts from the Right-wing that sound like "well if the gays don't like it, they can just leave Arizona". Which is the same as saying "the gays should just leave Arizona" or "blacks should just go back to Africa".

    It's 2014, we have a black president. Let's try not to erase decades of civil right's movements.
    You mean legally to discriminate. Business owners already discriminate on a regular basis, they just aren't overt about it (trust me, I've been on the receiving end of it a number of times).

    Isn't a part of civil rights and our laws religious freedom though, in particular the right to practice our religions as we see fit? While you or I may find certain aspects of religion and how people apply it absurd, who are we to say they are wrong?
    "Rules do not exist to bind you, they exist so you may know your freedoms"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashis View Post
    Isn't a part of civil rights and our laws religious freedom though, in particular the right to practice our religions as we see fit? While you or I may find certain aspects of religion and how people apply it absurd, who are we to say they are wrong?
    That's the same argument that pacifists in the North used when civil war was looming over the country. "Who are we to say they can't own slaves?". America is supposed to be a progressive country where all races and sexual orientations are treated equally. We have a moral obligation to point out racism and say "that's not cool, man". Unless you want to debate moral relativism, it should go without question that a public business should serve all of the public equally, or close its doors.

    You could easily open a restaurant as a "private club" and screen membership applications if you want to discriminate. Doing it openly with the support of State laws makes America look bad, and doing so behind the cover of "God tells me to hate them" is just foul.
    Last edited by Aktillum; 02-24-2014 at 08:42 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktillum View Post
    That's the same argument that pacifists in the North used when civil war was looming over the country. "Who are we to say they can't own slaves?". America is supposed to be a progressive country where all races and sexual orientations are treated equally. We have a moral obligation to point out racism and say "that's not cool, man". Unless you want to debate moral relativism, it should go without question that a public business should serve all of the public equally, or close its doors.

    You could easily open a restaurant as a "private club" and screen membership applications if you want to discriminate. Doing it openly with the support of State laws makes America look bad, and doing so behind the cover of "God tells me to hate them" is just foul.
    And religions too. You forgot them again.

    What America is supposed to be and what it is are two very different things.
    "Rules do not exist to bind you, they exist so you may know your freedoms"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashis View Post
    And religions too. You forgot them again.

    What America is supposed to be and what it is are two very different things.
    I feel like you're bordering on the argument of "if you hate bigotry, you're no better than the bigots". Religion has the first amendment to spew all the hate they want, they do not need State-sanctioned discrimination to go with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktillum View Post
    I feel like you're bordering on the argument of "if you hate bigotry, you're no better than the bigots". Religion has the first amendment to spew all the hate they want, they do not need State-sanctioned discrimination to go with it.
    I haven't said a word about hate or bigotry, but it seems like that is what you are focusing on.
    "Rules do not exist to bind you, they exist so you may know your freedoms"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kashis View Post
    I haven't said a word about hate or bigotry, but it seems like that is what you are focusing on.
    Your posts seemed to imply that we should tolerate legal discrimination if it comes from religion because it's their right to practice how they see fit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aktillum View Post
    Your posts seemed to imply that we should tolerate legal discrimination if it comes from religion because it's their right to practice how they see fit.
    Is that what I said? Still focusing on only the discrimination issue I see.

    Okay.
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    Still focusing on only the discrimination issue I see.
    At least we agree there is a discrimination issue.

    I personally support the 1st amendment.
    I also support the 2nd amendment. The Right to Bear Arms.

    However, you can't shoot someone just because you have a gun(yet lol.)
    True, You can use it to protect yourself and your family. If you are in danger.

    Sure, the right wing, fear goggle wearing portion of the country may say that they think they are protecting their way of life. Their beliefs. Their religion.

    However, I have NEVER heard someone making those claims actually have a point. Other than "it's wrong!"
    Pure discrimination. Hate.

    Someone being LGBT, an unwed mother, or an atheist isn't going to have any effect on anyone other than the person who was born to it or made that life choice.

    They would see an infinitely smaller impact if they could learn a little about tolerance. Maybe acceptance... someday.



    Then again, the Bible doesn't say anything about people taking divine judgement into ther on hands.
    Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you.
    Matthew 7:1
    And the Pope would certainly not have agreed with it even if it did.

    If those were true... it...
    It would almost seem like people aren't doing this on an actual religious standpoint but are just using religion as a means to justify their own bigotry.
    Last edited by FarmerM; 02-24-2014 at 10:41 AM.

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    Meanwhile, in the comparative utopia of civil liberty that is the UK...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13096519
    And if the cloud bursts, thunder in your ear.

    You shout and no one seems to hear.

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