My dear otaku nerdlings, may I present to you...

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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    Ronin, I think one of us may have had a small stroke because I don't understand that analogy.
    This is like:
    Stopping bullying by bullying the bullys?
    Trying to kill of murderers, by murdering them?
    Making culture progress by banning foreign influences?

    Fixing what is broken with US culture by saving it from importing a TV series from Japan?

    Any of that sounding like ideas of wisdom?
    Last edited by Ronin; 06-10-2014 at 12:56 PM.

    Stay frosty.

  2. #52
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    Nope. Your analogy does really match any of the things you just said. lol
    And what you said doesn't really pertain what I am talking about.

    I believe firmly in freedom of speech/expression.
    I however think people should be realize that freedom of speech doesn't mean that what you say/do does not have consequences or effect others. I think people should attempt to use their freedom wisely as to not effect others in negative ways.

    SM was just the topic on hand, no part of the argument was directed solely toward "foreign influence or media."
    Last edited by FarmerM; 06-11-2014 at 12:48 AM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    Meaning, she may not have sat down and said "I want to make my characters sexually appealing." But if she didn't most likely believes sex appeal is important by default.
    Well, isn't it?
    Just a though : What's the only qualifying factor that separates friends from lovers? I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's sex/physical intimacy. Lacking that, there is no difference. Lacking that, how does concepts like partner exclusivity, or cheating even make sense? Can you cheat on your friends by having other friends?

    Next question - What triggers feelings of physical attraction, and want of sex/sexual attention? Physical qualities that one appreciates. Some people might delude themselves into thinking it's personality, but seriously, tying together with my first point, why aren't you then pining after a lay with every single friend you have, who all have the personality traits you find attractive?

    Conclusion - physical traits are an enormous factor in driving our sexuality, and our sexuality is an enormous factor in our lives since we, as a species that propagate by having sex, are constantly being driven towards having sex.

    That desire, and the traits we find desirable will always find an expression in pretty much all of our endeavors for that reason. To expect men and women in media and art to be more homely, less beautiful, less sexy etc, is not only unrealistic(for why would anyone watch a show with a character that looks bad, if they could watch a character with the exact same traits personality-wise, that also looks good) - it's contrived and pointless.

    If anything, it's sex-negative.

    If you're making art, and you're giving your imagination free reigns, what's more likely to come out of it : Interesting individuals you find attractive, or uninteresting people you don't find attractive?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    Sailor Moon characters were, in part, designed by the preconceived notion that women should be fit a certain template. While it does not actively promote sexualization, it is passively present and as a result it continues to spread the idea subliminally. .
    Says you. Where does that template come from? Does it randomly pop out of the ether every hundred years, or has a lot of physical ideals stayed relatively static for ages?

    In any case, I reject your sentiment. It doesn't tell us how we ought to be, it tells us what the artist prefers. So unless you're going to judge people for expressing preference, which is a thought-crime-ish sentiment I find really creepy, there really isn't anything going on here.
    You can't derive ought from is, and media displaying an ideal is not the same as asking everybody to conform to it. People who feel that way need to work on their self-esteem and their understanding of reality, not ask reality to conform to the lowest common denominator of emotional frailty.

    It's a really odd sentiment if you think about it -
    Let's say I, for the sake of the argument, would never consider dating a women who doesn't wear short skirts, and high heels.
    If you argue that this is wrong of me because it forces women to conform to a sexual stereotype, you are essentially saying that I shouldn't have sexual preferences to save women from my evil compulsions because they're too weak and incompetent to decide for themselves whether they think it's important to cater to my sexual preferences or not.
    Or, you're saying that I should just date women regardless of what I actually desire, which implies that women are somehow owed a relationship with me based on a different set of qualities that I might not even care for to begin with, which is inane.

    Realistically speaking though, I am not going to take into account the sexual preferences of women I am not interested in, just as women who're not interested in me, aren't going to take my sexual preferences into account either. Of course, the reverse is true too. And that, by all accounts, is the way it should be.
    In either case, if people could just "grow a pair", and learn how to deal with/ignore "expectations", this issue wouldn't be worth talking about at all.

    At the end of the day, there are many male ideals I don't conform too, and certainly many women who will exclude me from their list of potential partners based on that alone, but I don't care, because I like who I am right now, and personally, I rather wouldn't want to be dating a women who thinks muscle-mass, or the amount of money I have in my savings account are the two biggest factors in deciding if I am worth going on dates with for a couple of times.

    Women can do that too you know. And if they did, nobody would give a rats ass about the length on the skirts of the girls in Sailor Moon. It all boils down to the allergic reaction society has to male sexual preference being displayed because some special snow-flakes out there can't handle it, because in their paranoid world-view, any such preference expressed means that a girl out there will go "omg, the Sailor Moon girls are popular and wear short skirts, so I guess I'm going to have to do that too, or society will really screw me over!"

    I mean seriously?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    And that type of subliminal message from a child's Hero can make a lasting impression.
    Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. I've never seen any empirical, double-blind scientific studies on the causal link of media/art and changes in the human psyche that suggests such a thing. Probably because it doesn't exist anywhere.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    The point is that the media has it drilled into our minds and culture that the latter is also required or it some how diminishes the other more important qualities.
    Eh no. I think human biology, and common sense dictates that when we select partners, we recognize viscerally that if we're going to only be looking at one partner, and having sex with one partner, for an extended period of time, it better be a partner we're really sexually attracted to.

    In fantasy land I.E Sailor Moon and Final Fantasy etc, every character is essentially an escape-ist ideal. Every single character is someone's ideal wonder-man or wonder-woman, because that's what humans generally project into their art, whether they know it or not.

    Bluntly put, every single fictional character ever made that hasn't been made with the specific purpose of being repugnant, is an expression of someone's ideal partner. That's why they are all, in the vast majority of cases, super attractive, one-dimensional, easily graspable stereotypical illusions.
    Not because society is shaping us up to take part in oppressive social structures, not because the sexes are at war with each other, not because most male artists are misogynist, or female artists are screechy fan-girl types - but because everybody deep down has some sort of wishy-washy ideal man/woman floating around in their mind, and once they sit down to make a fictional character, that man or woman is very likely to come popping out whether you know it or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    This mindset isn't just instilled on males. I have personally never seen a man refuse to be friends with another just because one is -ugly.- I have however seen women DESTROY each other emotionally just because one has apparent physical flaws.
    Then you either don't have enough male friends, live in a bubble, or simply aren't interested in seeing the other side of the coin.

    I know many men who have been bullied for physical flaws(I am one of them), by both other men, and by women. I know men who've ended up dying due to drug use and too much training trying to attain the best possible physique. I know men who are anorexic, and I know men who are bulimic. I know over-weight men who've killed themselves, and I know under-weight/short/squat men who suffer from depression because of body-image insecurity.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    There's nothing wrong with being attractive, I just hate all the douchebaggery that results due to the media imprint.
    I hate seeing people suffering with anorexia, bulimia, depression and myriad of other problems because they don't think they meet what is "common and socially acceptable."
    Often there is much more to the story than that though. It's very easy to say "this girl/boys suffers from body image issues due to social expectations", but that doesn't take into account factors like other earlier mental issues(born/earlier developed dispositions for depression and social anxiety), how they were raised etc.

    The problem is that social and personal expectations will never go away. They'll always be there.
    Trying to rain in on that can only be done by compromising free-speech, free artistic expression etc.

    Catching up on people with psychological issues before they implode on themselves, or focusing on raising kids capable of handling social pressures is ultimately much more constructive.
    You can teach kids to walk up-right, and focus on catching them when they fall, by constructive a society of positive rhetoric and strong social institutions for dealing with mental health issues from a young age.

    Creating a society where no expectations exist, or where everybody are treated like eggs, only creates further problems when those individuals who've been culled by the system, suddenly finds themselves in a situation where life isn't all that fair, or nice anymore.

    You can take high-heels, short skirts, slender models etc, out of all the art and the media, but it still isn't going to change the real problem. You're still going to have sexual preferences - you're still going to have men and women refuse to date people they don't find attractive, socially stigmatize people they find physically unattractive etc.
    People making funny of the short, the fat, the weak, the pimply, the handicapped etc, didn't begin with the 21st century. It's existed for all of recorded human history, and thus existed fine without the modern media formats to help it.

    So with that being said, why would anyone be naive enough to think that changing the media format now, will somehow have any meaningful effect on that at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    I believe firmly in freedom of speech/expression.
    I however think people should be realize that freedom of speech doesn't mean that what you say/do does not have consequences or effect others. I think people should attempt to use their freedom wisely as to not effect others in negative ways.
    And I think knowing that you live in a country where there is freedom of speech and artistic expressions means making an effort to not get "negatively impacted" by others use of those freedoms.
    Just like I don't accept in it when religious people use the "I get offended" argument when they hear atheists being critical of religion, I don't accept it when people try to rein in on art because of how it "portrays women/men".
    Art is personal - political art is called propaganda for a reason.
    By trying to attribute political meaning to art by default, all art is reduced to propaganda in a sense, because all people see is art in relation to political values. That's inane. I refuse to live in a society like that.

    Sailor Moon is Sailor Moor. It's an expression of that authors preferences and fantasies. If people don't like it, they don't have to watch it. If they dislike what is expressed within, they can express the reverse of those ideals in their own art, or in their own everyday lives.
    Going "this needs to stop"(granted,I know you don't - but to those who do) is the social equivalent of the cleaning technique where one puts all the dust and shit under the carpet, rather than throwing it out I.E not constructive at all.
    Last edited by hian; 06-11-2014 at 10:54 AM.

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  4. #54
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    I really am trying hard to see how Sailor Moon corrupts children into sex-fiends, but somehow I can't feather how silly the idea is.

    8-17 year old girls could be prohibited from spending their time with better, more Murican things like, for example, singing along to Miley while she simulates beating off and ****ing on stage with virtually no clothing on at all.

    Which is me saying this "discussion" is completely out of touch.

    Stay frosty.

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