Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 27

Thread: What do you think about Virtual CrowdFunding and Stocks?

  1. #1
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default What do you think about Virtual CrowdFunding and Stocks?

    It is something that is new to me at least within the last couple of years.

    The idea is that a percentage of areas in a game are sold off to the players in the form of 'deeds' or stocks.
    Then a portion of the income those areas bring into the game is returned to the deed holders as a weekly dividend.

    The game I play has released a couple of these over the last few years and raised a considerable amount of 'crowd sourced' funding this way as well as producing an additional economy within their game with the deeds that players can sell to each other or horde for the weekly dividends.

    Now they have taken the next evolutionary step in 'virtual crowd sourcing' and are planning to sell deeds to a new f2p android game that is completely separate from the game the deeds are being sold in.

    So what do you guys think?
    If your favorite studio had a kickstarter for a new game would you donate?
    If that same studio did the crowd sourcing internally would you be more or less likely to donate?
    What do you think of the idea of a virtual stock market where the value of 'stocks' goes up and down depending on activity not only in the same game but in other games as well?

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  2. #2
    Luigiís Pizza Reputation: 10
    PoorGamer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    132
    Rep Power
    4

    Default

    Seems like a vague and fishy idea. Game studios seem to be more creative in ways of convincing to people to give them money than actually making games.

  3. #3
    OnRPG Elite Member! Reputation: 640
    Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hitman Victor
    Posts
    6,309
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PoorGamer View Post
    Seems like a vague and fishy idea. Game studios seem to be more creative in ways of convincing to people to give them money than actually making games.
    True.

    Would I donate money to building a pyramid scheme?
    Not very likely.

    Stay frosty.

  4. #4
    Hoshigami Reputation: 427
    Kashis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Plainfield, New Jersey
    Posts
    8,030
    Rep Power
    22

    Default

    Depends on the company. I would gladly support Level 5 for a Dark Cloud 3. Wouldnt give capcom a dime though. I'd toss a 100$ at tinyspeck to bring back glitch *shrug*.
    Be careful of what you say, tomorrow or today, for the words you now speak, may become the poison your enemies later seek; truth.

    "Rules do not exist to bind you, they exist so you may know your freedoms"

  5. #5
    Cloud13's Clown Reputation: 328
    postrook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Posts
    2,851
    Rep Power
    11

    Default

    i think yr kinda nuts xd

    but that's ok

  6. #6
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by postrook View Post
    i think yr kinda nuts xd

    but that's ok
    lol... well thats a different part of the game.
    That is playing (mining)
    This is the 'virtual stock market' there are different strategies, risks, and rewards between those different aspects of the 'game'.

    Not trying to push the game in this thread though, just curious of what people thought of the idea behind buying/selling virtual stocks as a means of crowd funding.

    Edit:
    Some numbers for example:
    60,000 CLDs sold for $100 each raising $6million and have since returned over 18% interest to the holders annually.
    200,000 AUDs sold for $5 each raising $1million and have since returned over 7.5% interest annually.

    There are 200,00 of the new deeds selling for $10 each raising $2million and it is unknown the profit margin since it is yet released and will be an external mobile game.
    Last edited by Narfi Hungry Willem; 07-12-2014 at 01:56 AM.

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  7. #7
    HopeDagger's Henchman Reputation: 204
    FarmerM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,263
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    I think studios who can afford to produce a game and still do crowd funding can suck it.

    I really like the real world economy concept, I just think Entropia is dated and that the control systems/combat are boring.
    I also think that too much money is sunk on NPC created essentials, such as mining probes, and taxes.
    As is, the average player is lucky to break even after sells are complete.

    I would rather see the developers make money by offering cool (untradable) cash sinks.

  8. #8
    Marios's Mustache Wax Reputation: 12

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    11
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    I think studios who can afford to produce a game and still do crowd funding can suck it.

    I really like the real world economy concept, I just think Entropia is dated and that the control systems/combat are boring.
    I also think that too much money is sunk on NPC created essentials, such as mining probes, and taxes.
    As is, the average player is lucky to break even after sells are complete.

    I would rather see the developers make money by offering cool (untradable) cash sinks.
    If you think the average player "should" be able to break even, then you have an interesting vision on doing business. Unless a company has NO costs whatsoever, the average player MUST spend more than he wins. Else, bankruptcy is inevitable.

    Personally, I have bought US$ 1300 worth of deeds in Entropia Universe when they were issued. I did so, primarily for other reasons than income. I wanted to support development, and get some perks which were going to be involved. And yes, I confess.... I was somewhat drunk at that particular time. But I was sober enough to understand a thing or two about the projected numbers.

    I made my own calculations and decisions on where it would, for me, be classified as a good investment. And while returns have been less than the projections (for obvious reasons, which were utterly discussed in the time between the first announcement and the actual issuance), returns have always been above my personally defined minimum. And I have been able to keep playing the game the way I like because of it. Actually, I could do even more than I could before.

    There have been other such issuances. I spent about 1 month of my deed income on another deed. Their return is somewhat dissappointing, but worst-case (total loss), all it has hurt me is by increasing my earnbacktime by one month.

    I also do crowdfunding elswhere. There, I must invest at least $125 in a plan, and get like 8%. In this, the investment is less, and the possible revenu is higher (as is, indeed, the risk). But hey, it's all part of the adventure.

    Of course, not unimportant: I consider every single dollar I pay to a game company to be an expenditure. So I don't count on it to come back to me. Anything that DOES come back is welcome, but if this all fails, I won't be hurting very much. Not as much as I would RL.

  9. #9
    HopeDagger's Henchman Reputation: 204
    FarmerM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,263
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    True, the developer needs to make money.
    However, the way it's set up, you are basically paying to work.

  10. #10
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    If playing a game = working, you may as well get a job. I got a job already and enjoy playing games when not working.

    However thats not really the topic here, this thread is about crowd funding and the idea of 'virtual stocks' based on in game activity level as well as activity levels in other games.

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  11. #11
    HopeDagger's Henchman Reputation: 204
    FarmerM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,263
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    Feel free to explain it but it really seems like people are dumping large amounts of money into a game to mine, craft, and doing things in general to attempt to make a profit but always ending up in the red. That seems like the reason the "real cash economy" is the developer's main(only?) point of advertisement.

    I really don't think the goal is fun because it's an outdated, steaming POS when it comes to basically every gameplay feature.

    It reeeeeally seems like the same kind of fun that people who are addicted to scratch off lottery tickets have.

    Sure, there are social aspects but enjoying the company of others. Friendship. Doesn't make things less sh*tty. It jusy distracts you from it.

  12. #12
    OnRPG Elite Member! Reputation: 640
    Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hitman Victor
    Posts
    6,309
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    One thing needs to be said:
    No matter how you look at it, it's a slot machine. For that reason virtual stocks are not gameplay for me.

    Betting on other people playing on other slot machines? That's just the same as working that slot machine yourself. Not gameplay either. Calling it "virtual stocks" is deceptive.

    This is like those machines that let you bet on dog-racing, which work this way:
    You bet first, after that the machine selects a random race video from a pool of a couple of thousands and if your number (dog) wins, you win.
    That is not betting on sports (which is bad enough). This is a slot machine with dog decoration.

    Virtual stocks on game mechanisms won't work differently. It's just a slot machine. A new sparkling paintjob won't change that. Hiding the fact behind layers of deception won't either.
    Last edited by Ronin; 07-14-2014 at 10:20 PM.

    Stay frosty.

  13. #13
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    I really think you must be confused. This has absolutely nothing to do with game play.

    People will like or not like the way Entropia is played, but that is not the topic here.

    The 'deeds' or 'stocks' have nothing to do with the game play, has nothing to do with hunting, mining, crafting, etc.....

    A deed is a % 'ownership' of a certain portion of the game in which you will get a % dividend of what the company makes from that portion of the game.
    Now they are adding deeds for other games as well, part ownership of a game where you will receive a % dividend of what that other game makes.

    NOTHING to do with the game play, this is only virtual crowd funding/stocks.

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  14. #14
    HopeDagger's Henchman Reputation: 204
    FarmerM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,263
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    I'll bet a virtual penny that he ignores your edit, Ronin.

  15. #15
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    No reason to ignore him, also no reason to hide posts prior to mine by editing instead of posting.

    At least he is starting to address the actual topic instead of non related stuff.

    First I do not understand the irrational fear of ********. Everything we do is a gamble rather it is getting out of bed in the morning (what if there is a snake or a spider on the floor we didn't see?), eating a bowl of cereal for breakfast (what if a mouse craped in it?), Going outside (what if termites destroyed the structural integrity of the porch and it collapses under your weight and kills you?), crossing the street (what if a car hits you?) etc.....
    Obviously there are different levels of ********, and some people do have an addiction to ******** with money they can not afford to loose, but that does not make it any more dangerous when done properly than a glass of wine a night. Sure for someone with issues with that specific addiction it could put them over the edge, but for a normal, healthy, and intelligent person without those issues, there is nothing wrong with it.
    Games with aspects of chance and skill have been part of human culture for as long as history has been recorded, what is wrong with enjoying them now?

    Second, since this topic is about virtual stocks and how they can tie over to actual companies values and incomes, what is wrong with them having the same risks ("gamble") that real life stocks have?
    I do not have a lot of knowledge about the real life stock market, but this was an interesting read for me,
    http://www.investopedia.com/articles/02/061902.asp

    edit: (before any other posts, not after :P )
    Specifically read point 1 in the linked article.
    Last edited by Narfi Hungry Willem; 07-14-2014 at 11:58 PM.

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  16. #16
    HopeDagger's Henchman Reputation: 204
    FarmerM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    1,263
    Rep Power
    7

    Default

    All of the things you mentioned. There are fairly simple steps that make those possibilities veeeeery low.
    Spiders, Snakes, Termites, Mice? Does your Entropia not have pest control?
    Crossing the Street? Look.
    Those may be considered gambles for people of fairly low intelligence but for the most coming out on top is a matter of common sense.
    Use of those as examples seems to be a person with a problem trying to rationalize.

    The type of addiction/rush ******** involved in Entropia and other ******s is a bit different. Competent people who do a TON of research are excepted to end up in the hole. See Narfi Hungry Willem.

    While owning a share of virtual property in a game like this may seem like owning a stock, it isn't. Ultimately it is still a game and subject to balancing, changes, and whatever the developers want to do to the code.

  17. #17
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    The type of addiction/rush ******** involved in Entropia and other ******s is a bit different. Competent people who do a TON of research are excepted to end up in the hole. See Narfi Hungry Willem.
    The rush for me is winning when I am expected to loose. I have not ended up in the hole because I am competent, and because I have done a TON of research. And that is why it is not (pure) ******** but a game that combines skill and luck much like poker does.

    Quote Originally Posted by FarmerM View Post
    While owning a share of virtual property in a game like this may seem like owning a stock, it isn't. Ultimately it is still a game and subject to balancing, changes, and whatever the developers want to do to the code.
    Which is why I called it Virtual as in not real as in part of a game, you are only stating the obvious. That is also why I call it crowd funding, it is collecting money from people who have faith or hope in a product, not from people who do not.

    So again the topic is on VIRTUAL (not real, a game) Crowd Funding and VIRTUAL (not real, a game) stocks and how they tie over to what is real(players activities and spending in one game or another)

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  18. #18
    Marios's Mustache Wax Reputation: 12

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    11
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Back on topic:

    It is something that is new to me at least within the last couple of years.
    The idea is that a percentage of areas in a game are sold off to the players in the form of 'deeds' or stocks.
    Then a portion of the income those areas bring into the game is returned to the deed holders as a weekly dividend.

    The game I play has released a couple of these over the last few years and raised a considerable amount of 'crowd sourced' funding this way as well as producing an additional economy within their game with the deeds that players can sell to each other or horde for the weekly dividends.
    I responded to this before.

    Now they have taken the next evolutionary step in 'virtual crowd sourcing' and are planning to sell deeds to a new f2p android game that is completely separate from the game the deeds are being sold in.
    I think this is a brilliant move. Instead of coughing up all the money up front, with all the associated financing cost (interest, or opportunity cost if the cash was simply laying around), and instead of issueing shares with all the paperwork attached, raising capital from your own clientbase is an absolute brilliant idea: they know who you are, they know your trackrecord. So you don't need to invest heavily in introducing yourself and your company. This reduces cost.

    It also helps the bonding of the client/investor with your brand. Furthermore, it is a great way of leveraging the financial resources you already have. And with any online product, the most cost go into development. So once you have the initial investment covered, there is no problem when you have to pay out a % to your players, many of whom will just use the earnings to play the game even more than before.

    [/quote]So what do you guys think?
    If your favorite studio had a kickstarter for a new game would you donate?
    [/quote]

    No, I would not donate. But provided that I see potential in the idea, I would invest.

    If that same studio did the crowd sourcing internally would you be more or less likely to donate?
    If all other conditions were the same, there is a slight advantage for internal sourcing. Because such investments would pay out in the same game. As long as the amounts invested aren't used, this is a good way of getting your playtime financed. The cool thing here is that it would be paid with something which for the govt. is an expenditure, and as long as it stays ingame, it's no official income. So if ever dollar earned is used to play, you are getting the equivalent of your monthly expenditure as a tax-free income.

    (Example:
    You earn $50 salary, lets say tax is 25%, then you have $37,50 to play with.
    But if the internal investment earns me $50, I can play with $50. To get $50 to play with, I'd need $60 income. Woot, I just got a taxfree raise )

    What do you think of the idea of a virtual stock market where the value of 'stocks' goes up and down depending on activity not only in the same game but in other games as well?
    I think this becomes too risky, as this may convince people to invest larger amounts of money. The RL stockmarket has a couple of safeguards and oversight institutions which are not present here (yet). I don't think you should bring HUGE amounts of money into a single company. That goes if you have a stockportfolio of $10M, and it also goes if you have $1000 to play around with. You spread your investments, to spread your risks. If you put all your money in a virtual stockexchange, then you are putting all eggs in one basket, as it is a single company running the place. And any company may go bankrupt.

  19. #19
    Marios's Mustache Wax Reputation: 11

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    3
    Rep Power
    0

    Default

    Well the idea of crowdfunding isn't very new as such for videogames. See Star citizen for example. Entropia however takes another approach. Instead of buying gamefeatures you buy the opportunity for an own finiancial benefit within the borders of the game.

    It is neither better nor worse than buying features. It is just different as Entropia's core feature is the RCE aspect of the game.

    As long as you just invest what you can afford to lose ( as in every other invest in life ) this is fine. However people should never go into this with wrong assumtions. This is not a safe investment environment which replaces your pension fund. People support their favourite game, and that is the keypoint. And here it is about the same as Star Citizen's Kickstarter-campaign. People there support what they hope will become a cool game to play maybe for decases, like EU players play the game they love for more than a decade now.

    Overall i like the idea of funding development that way, because every Penny collected is a symbol of trust in the game studio to create something cool to play with.

    Regarding the side discussion, i still fail to see why so many people consider Entropia ********, that shows lack of understanding of it's core concept imho. You can treat it as ******** if you like, but for me and a lot of other people i know that is the wrong approach towards Entropia as for sure you will get burned ******** in Entropia. Those who gamble usually end up whining on the forum AND are absolutely resitant when they get useful hints how to adjust gameplay according to common community knowledge.

  20. #20
    OnRPG Elite Member! Reputation: 640
    Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hitman Victor
    Posts
    6,309
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Narfi Hungry Willem View Post
    First I do not understand the irrational fear of ********.
    Mostly when I say "I don't understand..." I assume what I say afterwards probably sounds ****ing ignorant.
    That comes from the fact that I just read stuff other people say and usually when they start out that way, what follows is ****ing ignorant. Just saying.

    Also, if owning real stock is ******** or not isn't relevant here. All this is about is that the makers of EU built in a way to make bets with higher stakes. It's a wallstreet-decorated slot machine. It's not "the wallstreet".
    Last edited by Ronin; 07-15-2014 at 06:00 PM.

    Stay frosty.

  21. #21
    Marios's Mustache Wax Reputation: 12

    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    11
    Rep Power
    2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
    Mostly when I say "I don't understand..." I assume what I say afterwards probably sounds ****ing ignorant.
    That comes from the fact that I just read stuff other people say and usually when they start out that way, what follows is ****ing ignorant. Just saying.

    Also, if owning real stock is ******** or not isn't relevant here. All this is about is that the makers of EU built in a way to make bets with higher stakes. It's a wallstreet-decorated slot machine. It's not "the wallstreet".
    Wait, are you saying that admitting you don't understand something is ignorant? But...if you never admit that you don't understand...then how are you ever going to learn to understand?

  22. #22
    OnRPG Elite Member! Reputation: 640
    Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hitman Victor
    Posts
    6,309
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    No. I know that people, when they try to sneak in under the radar to fling some Bullshit, have the tendency to stick their heads out to check if the radar is still in place. That's not an issue other than that Narfi probably isn't a natural talent at coning people. It also gives away that he is either some sort of detached psycho or he explicitly told us that he didn't really believe in what he posted.

    Other than that I could try to explain how you misrepresented the meaning of my post, but it ain't worth the bother, it's not that big a deal. Maybe Narfi really thinks, that people who buy a coffee at their favorite place are engaging in just the same gamble (it might not come, or be far too hot, or cold and when you ask them for a refund maybe they don't have any money in the register and you have to take credit and after that the shop shuts down, because some meteorite hit it, possibly), as someone who throws a couple of thousand dollars into a slot machine.

    See, I get that some people like slot machines. I don't and I as a rule don't borrow those people money. Don't even ask me, if I would like to bet any thousand dollar amount on a number of craps tables as some sort of "investment". That's just hard to take seriously. I guess this is it, as far as what i can reply to the topic goes...
    Last edited by Ronin; 07-16-2014 at 04:47 PM.

    Stay frosty.

  23. #23
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    The question was never about if you would play at the craps table. (Your term)
    The question was what are your thoughts on buying a share in the ******. (Your term)

    My real question though before you and farmer decided to twist it was,
    What are your thoughts on buying a virtual share of a game company as an alternative means to crowd funding.

    Forget about Entropia completely and look at the question for what it is.
    It is a method that could in one way or another be used in any game though it is more natural in an RCE environment.

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

  24. #24
    OnRPG Elite Member! Reputation: 640
    Ronin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Hitman Victor
    Posts
    6,309
    Rep Power
    25

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Narfi Hungry Willem View Post
    Forget about Entropia completely and look at the question for what it is.
    That's kinda what I did. There are really 3 ways this can progress:
    A) You bet on other peoples bets. I am no expert but afaik this is what happens at craps.
    The company does a limited fundraiser in w/e way it decides to. You get nothing, but you also don't get scammed on some sort of "investment" "stock" or w/e else idea.
    C) The company does go public. No virtual nonsense necessary. After that you can invest.

    Stay frosty.

  25. #25
    Entropia Universe Journalist Reputation: 55
    Narfi Hungry Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    701
    Rep Power
    6

    Default

    That is better but I would argue that there is a huge difference between betting on a players outcome than on betting x number of players will play.

    It doesn't matter if a game is subscription, f2p with micro transactions or RCE the devs know statisticly that for every x number of players they will make x amount of money.

    Buying stocks either virtual or real in a game is done because you believe that x (number of players) will be large enough that your small fraction of a dividend will be worth what you spent on the "stock" over time and that when you don't wish to hold it anymore someone else will want to buy it from you.

    EntropiaPlanets - Fan Site I am involved with
    Entropia Wiki

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •