This is where you are wrong.
There are those that do have a traumatic life experience that changes them. Thats just a few though.
Most are born that way, and there have been more than enough studies that show it, studies that have used genetic, hormonal, and brain scan evidence backing it up.
William Byne, a psychiatrist with a doctorate in biology, and Bruce Parsons (1993) carefully analyzed all the major biological studies of homosexuality. They found none that definitively supported a biological theory of causation. --W. Byne and B. Parsons, "Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised." Archives of General Psychiatry 50, no.3.)
A quote from Dr. Clinton Anderson perhaps summarizes it best: "To date, no researcher has claimed that genes can determine sexual orientation. At best, researchers believe there may be a genetic component. No human behavior, let alone sexual behavior, had been connected to genetic markers to date ... sexuality, like every other behavior, is undoubtedly influenced by both biological and societal factors."
Consider this quotes from an article titled, "A Change in Thinking (Homosexuals are Made, not Born)" by Linda Bowles. "Many Americans believe homosexuals are born that way and can't do anything about it. For most of his professional life as a practicing psychiatrist, Dr. Robert Spitzer helped promote that belief. He has changed his mind. He now believes that some practicing homosexuals can change their sexual orientation and become practicing heterosexuals. He believes they can fall in love with a person of the opposite sex, have children, and successfully reorient their sexual mind set and transform their lives." That statement is significant. A behavior that is genetically based would not be alterable without altering the genes. The fact that many people have successfully changed their sexual orientation strongly indicates that there isn't a genetic cause for homosexuality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabianN
This is flaw your whole train of logic.
Evolution preaches nothing. It is simply a description of what has been observed, nothing more nothing less.
You need to stop putting your own life structure onto other ideas because there is obviously no similarity.
Sure.. once the gays stop throwing their life structure on to me. Stop handing me this double-standard crap. Gay Pride day is a prime example of gays shoving their lives on to others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabianN
Last time I checked marriage is not a christian thing, and was around thousands years before your religion was ever created.
So what grants Christians ownership over marriage?.
The marriage you and I know today comes straight out of Christianity.
11-04-2008, 06:26 AM
Avarwen
Quote:
Originally Posted by girtrute
so you agree paligimy should be legal aswell?
and out of religion or not its been that way. but american marriage has always been man and woman.
He didn't say that now you are just twisting his words. Maybe it's time for a change. Decades ago I would not have been able to vote because I'm female and black. Should it have remained that way till this day? When this rule changed hell did not break lose. It's the same with homosexual marriage the world will not all of a sudden go to hell anymore than it is now. Straight people will still get married and divorced as they have for years. It will change nothing.
11-04-2008, 06:27 AM
FabianN
Quote:
Originally Posted by girtrute
so you agree paligimy should be legal aswell?
and out of religion or not its been that way. but american marriage has always been man and woman.
You mean polygamy?
As long as all involved consent to it, there isn't a logical reason for it to be illegal.
So yea, I think it should be legal. Not something for me, but hey, some people like that kind of stuff.
And no, it's not american, it's christian. It came out of your bible, not the constitution. It came from your religious leaders, not the founding fathers.
Oh, and again, can you please start using something that at least resembles correct grammer? I have no idea what you ment to say in your 2nd sentence.
11-04-2008, 06:57 AM
power_gamer_6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str1der
People can not be born gay.
Prove it, Bill Nye.
11-04-2008, 06:58 AM
Str1der
Quote:
Originally Posted by power_gamer_6
Prove it, Bill Nye.
Read my reply to Fabby. Some distinguished scholars say otherwise.
Off-topic, that show rocked.
11-04-2008, 07:06 AM
XxXHolic
I remember talking to a friend about my views on a secular nation.
Yes the founding fathers created the United States under a secular view, they had the idea that if the church gained power over the states it could lead to bigger problems.
Though today you can easily see that religion is controlling many parts of America from the military to the white house.
there actually is an article talking about why other countries like Europe are doing alot better than God fearing America.
since I voted on this one I put some thought into it.
The thing is that if Marraige became legal between the same genders it will open many doors for possible loop holes and illegal uses for it (even if there are many as of now).
I do not care about what gender you are when you marry. Most religious folks argue that marriage was founded on religious principles and there religion dictates that homosexuality is a sin.
Marriage is alot different than it was back in early history. It has alot more to do than just loving one and another. There are papers signed and benefits given. Lots of people use marraige as a way to play the system. Like foreigners will marry a citizen in America so they can gain entrance to the US.
I am not against Marriage for homosexuals, but I am saying that if it is allowed that their will be many things that will need to be changed. It will also open alot more doors. You might have two old friends who live together but aren't gay. They might just marry for the benefits.
if homosexuals are allowed to marry great, but I would like some changes to the system.
11-04-2008, 08:19 AM
Kataal
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str1der
Hey, since I was a kid, I thought I was a purple elephant. Based on your philosophy, I must be a purple elephant.
People can not be born gay. Get that out of your head. It's all a choice, be it a conscious decision or a factor that happened in ones life to become that way.
all I can say to this is a big **** YOU.
I'm gay, and trust me, if I had a choice in the matter, I would choose to be straight.
Do you have any idea how much easier my life would be if I were straight? How much better growing up would have been?
I DID NOT choose to be gay, and NO ONE chooses who they love. Love is blind, my friend.
as for the "christians are to show love but do not have to accept sinful lifestyle" statement, that's UTTER BULLSHIT.
Only God will judge me. You, my friend, may not.
11-04-2008, 09:31 AM
Pok
Quote:
Originally Posted by FabianN
You mean polygamy?
As long as all involved consent to it, there isn't a logical reason for it to be illegal.
Actually, there is a reason that it isn't ideal (And therefore not legal):
1) Men tend to be naturally aggressive
2) Women want (or will be taken by) "high" quality men
3) The ratio of men and women is about equal (in most cases)
4) Higher quality (rich) males marry more than one woman
5) Ratio of men to women becomes skewed
6) Lower quality men have little to no chance of marrying
7) Some cultures (Middle Eastern) chances of reproducing (or engaging in the act) without being married is frowned upon and unlikely
8) Lower quality men act out - Riots, suicide bombing (Especially with a religion that promises copious quantities of virgins if you die for your religion), etc, etc.
9) Quality of life decreases overall
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str1der
Read my reply to Fabby. Some distinguished scholars say otherwise.
Off-topic, that show rocked.
As to people being born gay (and you saying it isn't possible for people to be born gay). Twin studies disagree.
Bailey and Pillard (1991): occurrence of homosexuality among
brothers
�� 52% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual men were likewise
homosexual
�� 22% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
�� 11% of adoptive brothers of homosexual men were likewise homosexual
J.M. Bailey and R.C. Pillard, “A genetic study of male sexual orientation,”
Archives of General Psychiatry, vol. 48:1089-1096, December 1991.
Bailey and Pillard (1993): occurrence of homosexuality among
sisters
�� 48% of identical (monozygotic) twins of homosexual women were likewise
homosexual (lesbian)
�� 16% of fraternal (dizygotic) twins were likewise homosexual
�� 6% of adoptive sisters of homosexual women were likewise homosexual
Bailey, J. M. and D. S. Benishay (1993), “Familial Aggregation of Female Sexual
Orientation,” American Journal of Psychiatry 150(2): 272-277.
11-04-2008, 09:42 AM
XxXHolic
You guys forget what are the important issues of Prop 8.
All you are trying to do is arguing that your "opinion" is fact.
The choice of being gay or not doesn't affect prop 8. So what if you somehow were able to choose would that make it wrong?
What stastics can you give me that homosexuality is bad. So far no one has scientifically proven Homosexuality to be dangerous.
I think the main discussion of prop 8 has to do with what benefits and legal papers and laws come with marriage and if we should change some of the rules,benefits and laws to accomodate homosexuals. Maybe we should call it something different than marriage. I am just trying to throw out some ideas that actually have to do with prop 8 and not just a rant on your belief of it being morally right or wrong.
11-04-2008, 03:06 PM
Norrin Radd
Despite the fact that Strider's level of oppression is borderline frightening, and he seems to be allergic to replying to me, I'm just going to reply to this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str1der
News flash! Homosexuality isn't genetic. You aren't born with it. You choose to become it regardless of what you think or feel. At some point in that persons life, something happened, be it sub-conscious or concious, that altered their thought process/feelings.
I'll let homosexuals get married the day the media stops making fun of my God. Sound like a fair trade? I mean, Family Guy sure does enough of it. But hey, we rarely, if ever insult Allah or anything to do with the Muslim religion, now do we? Hell, the whole incident where Family Guy pulled out that one epiode due to Muhammad being shown? Bull shit.
So ya, you're right. Personally, homosexuality doesn't effect me at all. I do know that allowing it on a mass scale will only lead to other things happening, regardless of what you say or think. For crying out loud, all you crazy Atheists should be in outrage. It goes straight against what evolution preaches. Then again, based off your beliefs, they'll just die out eventually as it is I guess.
Do you not see the flaw in this argument?
It's solid proof of how insecure you christians are. Let me explain:
You don't need to protect God, or religion. Either they're real or they're not. Seeing as there will never be factual proof as to whether they are correct, it stands or falls based on how strong the people believe it. So I can see why you are worried. As time goes on, religion is not seen as THE acceptable way of life to many people.
At the end of the day, either you're right or you're wrong about what you believe in. You believe with all of your faith that you are, so why is it hitting such a nerve to see people make fun of it? Because you're not sure, and you can't admit that. Why is it so bad, in your opinion, that some people find religion and its ideals to be inherently hilarious and do set out to mock it? Do you not feel that religion is strong enough to withstand these comedic attacks, so much so than any talk against it or actions against it should be banned? You do not have the right to not be offended, that's a beauty of democracy. Going around oppressing people for what YOU CHOSE to believe is not a way, in 2008, to get respect for your religion.
One of the continual topics of religious comedy is how oppressive you are. If you want to stop that, stop giving them things to pick on you about.
That's like saying "I can win this 100mtrs race, but stop everyone running anyway.". You're not sure that God exists or that he'll punish everyone for sin, that's why you get so many people trying to do "God's" work, because there certainly isn't any indication he exists to do it himself.
Personally? I'm agnostic, I have no proof either way, but at least I admit I'm not sure.
As the priest said, regarding people who pick apart religion:
"Either my beliefs are real or they're not. If they're real, as I believe they are, you can't dismantle them.". He doesn't need to ban shit cos he's secure enough. You're obviously not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str1der
Sure.. once the gays stop throwing their life structure on to me. Stop handing me this double-standard crap. Gay Pride day is a prime example of gays shoving their lives on to others.
There's this thing every year that everybody, around the world, is FORCED to participate in or be affected by. It happens on December the 25th, it's called Christmas and it's a religious holiday. I can't go to the store on that day because everything's closed. Nobody goes to work because everything's closed.
All of this because of YOUR Jesus Christ.
So maybe we should have Christmas for those who want it to, right? Would you be against that?
Gay pride doesn't force anything on you like your holidays do to everyone else.
11-04-2008, 03:28 PM
XxXHolic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norrin Radd
Despite the fact that Strider's level of oppression is borderline frightening, and he seems to be allergic to replying to me, I'm just going to reply to this.
Do you not see the flaw in this argument?
It's solid proof of how insecure you christians are. Let me explain:
You don't need to protect God, or religion. Either they're real or they're not. Seeing as there will never be factual proof as to whether they are correct, it stands or falls based on how strong the people believe it. So I can see why you are worried. As time goes on, religion is not seen as THE acceptable way of life to many people.
At the end of the day, either you're right or you're wrong about what you believe in. You believe with all of your faith that you are, so why is it hitting such a nerve to see people make fun of it? Because you're not sure, and you can't admit that. Why is it so bad, in your opinion, that some people find religion and its ideals to be inherently hilarious and do set out to mock it? Do you not feel that religion is strong enough to withstand these comedic attacks, so much so than any talk against it or actions against it should be banned? You do not have the right to not be offended, that's a beauty of democracy. Going around oppressing people for what YOU CHOSE to believe is not a way, in 2008, to get respect for your religion.
One of the continual topics of religious comedy is how oppressive you are. If you want to stop that, stop giving them things to pick on you about.
That's like saying "I can win this 100mtrs race, but stop everyone running anyway.". You're not sure that God exists or that he'll punish everyone for sin, that's why you get so many people trying to do "God's" work, because there certainly isn't any indication he exists to do it himself.
Personally? I'm agnostic, I have no proof either way, but at least I admit I'm not sure.
As the priest said, regarding people who pick apart religion:
"Either my beliefs are real or they're not. If they're real, as I believe they are, you can't dismantle them.". He doesn't need to ban shit cos he's secure enough. You're obviously not.
There's this thing every year that everybody, around the world, is FORCED to participate in or be affected by. It happens on December the 25th, it's called Christmas and it's a religious holiday. I can't go to the store on that day because everything's closed. Nobody goes to work because everything's closed.
All of this because of YOUR Jesus Christ.
So maybe we should have Christmas for those who want it to, right? Would you be against that?
Gay pride doesn't force anything on you like your holidays do to everyone else.
actually your either Atheist or not in the belief of a supernatural being.
Agnostism and Theism are the knowledge to know whether a god exists or not
Atheism and religion are disbelief or belief of a god.
I am a Athiest Agnostic.
Atheist in that I don't believe in god, But Agnostic in that I don't think you can disprove it since everything has a possibility to exist even if it's small.
a 3 min vid to show what I am talking about.
11-04-2008, 03:30 PM
hian
@Norrin: Agree, agree, and agreed.
--------------------------------
@strider&co
I think all religious people and gay-bashers should take a step backwards and try imagining a role-change.
I mean, what if I started my own religion, or better yet, a large collective atheist organ, and we found YOUR religion, and YOUR religious practises offensive, annoying, morally wrong, and despicable(which I do to a large extendt), and started to move out against it, banning it, trying to pass/passing laws that prevent you from having the same rights as non-religious.
Ironically, the worlds crackpot religions have a larger effect on my day-to-day life than same-sex marriage has, and will ever have.
Unless you can provide a VALID, logically consistant, and usefull reason why same-sex marriage shouldn't be allowed, you should just shut up. In any other part of society, the above is needed during an argument to prove your point, and to be accepted as worth consideration. Using your religion as a focus point for your argument, is not valid in a real discussion, nor does it give you special priviliges in opressing other people.
It might have worked that way during the dark ages, but thankfully, it doesn't anymore.
@xxxholic:
Fail. Norrin perfectly accounted for his agnosticism.
Here are three different defintions, all in favour of the way he used it.
Agnosticism (Greek: α- a-, without + γνώσις gnōsis, knowledge; after Gnosticism) is the philosophical view that the truth value of certain claims — particularly metaphysical claims regarding theology, afterlife or the existence of deities, ghosts, or even ultimate reality — is unknown or, depending on the form of agnosticism, inherently impossible to prove or disprove.
An agnostic thinks it impossible to know the truth in matters such as God and the future life with which Christianity and other religions are concerned. Or, if not impossible, at least impossible at the present time
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
you are lying to yourself right now and you know it.
No, I'm being honest. You're 100% factually, truthfully and undeniably wrong.
Still, whatever makes you sleep well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Str1der
Because it's entirely about you, isn't it? Get over yourself. You're not some all-knowing bag of knowledge. If you used what little brain you seem to have, you'd notice that I stopped posting for a few hours, most likely due to sleeping. This morning I went out and voted. So I'm sorry, but I have a bit better things to do with my time than sit here and argue with a wall.
Wait, who's hurling insults? Did I hit a nerve?
[QUOTE=Str1der;1383195]I have no insecurity in my religion. I've made it quite clear what I believe and how I
11-04-2008, 04:59 PM
Cloud13
Quote:
Originally Posted by Norrin Radd
No, you're factually wrong. Christmas is a holiday that causes retail to shut down for a day. Anyone non-religious is hindered by this.
I would say that most non-religious people "celebrate" Christmas, also.
Quote:
Well come on guys. It's obvious there is no swaying of the thoughts of these extremely closed minded people. These are the type of ppl that think they are right about everything, and state all their opinions as cold-hard facts. There is no convincing them that their prejudice way of thinking is completely wrong. When they start rambling about not liking being made fun of, then u kno they have run out of points, not that any of their points were ever remotely valid.
Basically, Norrin Wins..Strider Epic Fails.
Nobody ever changes their mind with internet debates. Also, calling us closed minded...lol.
I would say it's a tie, and Str1 hasn't even replied yet. :p
11-04-2008, 05:46 PM
FabianN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Civil
Er, I was saying homosexuals don't need to be married, since it isn't part of their religon. so, invalid.
Lots to reply to, will later, but there are religions that have homosexual marriages. As in, real religions, some that have been around before Christianity, that mention homosexual marriage in a positive (IMO) manner.
And then theres that marriage is NOT religious. It was around before your religion. There are those that are married with not a single religious person around.
Marriage in America is a federal legal binding document that grants the two participants tax breaks and special rights concerning each other.
That is what Marriage is.
So your whole statement here is incorrect.
11-04-2008, 07:13 PM
Norrin Radd
Exactly, Pok.
"Sanctity of marriage" is an illusion. I'd say the sanctity of marriage went flying out the window when break-ups became so frequent, and so did remarrying.
People should be supporting any marriage that looks like it might work out, if that's the issue.
11-04-2008, 09:00 PM
PugsPwn
I don't really think gay marriage is wrong it doesn't directly affect me in anyway so why would I want to keep someone down? If you find someone you love its a rare occasion and to be limited to show it becuase of gender is stupid. Like couldn't they put themselves in others shoes? I think its bull crap to do that to others, be who you are and love who you want.
11-04-2008, 09:01 PM
Norrin Radd
Quote:
Originally Posted by PugsPwn
I don't really think gay marriage is wrong it doesn't directly affect me in anyway so why would I want to keep someone down? If you find someone you love its a rare occasion and to be limited to show it becuase of gender is stupid. Like couldn't they put themselves in others shoes? I think its bull crap to do that to others, be who you are and love who you want.
The typical counter to that is; "You don't NEED to get married.", as Civil tried to argue. You don't need to be married to be in a successful, loving relationship.
That said, nobody does, so let's ban marriage if that's the case.
11-05-2008, 10:47 AM
Pok
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandman53
There is a simple solution to all of this. Don't have the govt. recognize marriage and have them only recognize civil unions.
What would this do? Everyone will have to get a civil union that will adopt the same rights as marriage as it currently stands. Religions could have all the marriage ceremonies they want and can say there are married if they want to but would have to get a civil union to have their union recognized under the law. Govt. needs to stay out of religion, and if those religious people want marriage all to themselves then the govt. should no longer recognize it. Simple as that.
The other option would be for religous people to understand that marriage is not a religion only thing, but that would be like trying to tell a religious person that god doesn't exist.
I don't think that making civil unions the only recognized union (Yay union-fest... Now the word looks wierd) would work as gay people (I think) would still like to be married so they can use the term "married". Even if it works out that civil unions are exactly the same as marriage or that marriages are no longer recognized by the government (in place of civil unions) I'd bet they'd still want to be called married.
11-05-2008, 10:55 AM
Sandman53
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pok
I don't think that making civil unions the only recognized union (Yay union-fest... Now the word looks wierd) would work as gay people (I think) would still like to be married so they can use the term "married". Even if it works out that civil unions are exactly the same as marriage or that marriages are no longer recognized by the government (in place of civil unions) I'd bet they'd still want to be called married.
Why? You don't have to believe in god like christians do so why should you get married if it remains something strictly religious? It wouldn't be recognized under the law, and that is what they want... to be on the same platform as a heterosexual couple.
Just like black people didn't want to go to separate schools, or separate bathrooms. Homosexual couples don't want to have civil unions when heterosexual couples can get married under the law. So strike marriage from the law. Put heterosexual and homosexual couples on the same ground by sanctioning only civil unions. If you want to get married on top of that... then that's your thing.
11-06-2008, 03:23 AM
Norrin Radd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Loric
For the love of all that is holy, when in this or any previous thread did Str1der say he wanted to strip people of the right to homosexuality/gay marriage?
Somewhere along the lines of:
"If I had my way there'd be no homosexuality, gay marriage, abortions or drug use.".
I wish that wasn't close to being verbatim, but it is.
