God Existence

What I dislike are evolution vs creationism arguements.

Evolution is a fact of life, it means change over time, to evolve. To deny that evolution exists would mean that you are denying that adaptation exists.
For people who assume evolution means we are derived from apes; that is a misconception. Apes exist alongside humans today, so it is impossible to say we evolved FROM them.
What this theory entails is that we share a common ancestor, millions of years ago. Not monkey >>> humans.

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Originally Posted by The Guardians

i do, but if you dont beleive in God because there's no "proof" then you need logic to think that how can anything exist, without something to create it, or it to come from. God is in a sense before time, he never became, just always is, and always will.
Also, what is the point of life if there is no after life? Existence is pointless if if there is nothing to live for.

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I say then that the universe never became but just always is, and always will.

And yes usually when something has no proof for it's existance it is perfectly normal to disregard it.

Some asserted with no evidence can be disregarded with no evidence.

what is befor the BEGINNING? so the answer would be NOTHING, so we then get to the next question. if there is something, then how can it come out of nothing? so it's a metaphysical impossibility.

that realization would only lead us to the idea (or a fact thereof) that the time/space structure is not LINEAR but actually repetitive or cyclical (progressing in cycles).

so in short, there is no beginning. everything is eternally recurring

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Originally Posted by Merah Matriz

what you need to see or realize is the difference between knowing and believing...

believing is a matter of faith, whereas knowing is a matter of truth. faith exists without the reinforcement of truth, faith endures with or without truth. truth on the other hand is the very foundation of knowledge. truth doesnt need faith nor anything, and in the ecclesiastical hierarchy, TRUTH always trumps over FAITH..

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Yup truth will always trump over faith. It's sad some people don;t realize that.

Also I find it weird that some people can't admit they don't know they have to fill in the gap with something no matter what, even if the thing they fill it in with is nothing.

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Originally Posted by IronyTaken

Yup truth will always trump over faith. It's sad some people don;t realize that.

Also I find it weird that some people can't admit they don't know they have to fill in the gap with something no matter what, even if the thing they fill it in with is nothing.

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Truth?
What truth?
You don't have a single fact poitnting out god isn't real.

Go, try and find some, I'm sure you don't have any friends to play with.

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Originally Posted by Z0MBiE

mofo? :hmm:

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No.

YOU. : (

There probably was a "god", there was never really a Santa Clause that went around houses and gave people gifts riding on his rain deers. But there was a person named Santa Clause or St. Nick or whatever you know him by that lived and made toys for kids. Sometimes a lie originated from the truth, so personally I don't believe in a "god", but I do people there is a god in all of us and when you pray you actually really just praying to yourself.

No.

Why?

Fossils.

which god? god of mmorpg? wow god of martial arts? bruce lee god of basketball? macheal jordan god of golf? tiger wood god of....?

Yeah but knowing what I worship won't help you. I can believe that cookie monster is my god and you'd say, of course big bang wasn't made of cookies. Religion has nothing to do with the start of the universe, it's important to believe in a higher being. Hell, if you believe in Dr. Manhattan that would be enough and good of a start.

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Originally Posted by Attila

Yeah but knowing what I worship won't help you. I can believe that cookie monster is my god and you'd say, of course big bang wasn't made of cookies. Religion has nothing to do with the start of the universe, it's important to believe in a higher being. Hell, if you believe in Dr. Manhattan that would be enough and good of a start.

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why is it important to believe in a higher being?

I see no importance.

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Originally Posted by IronyTaken

why is it important to believe in a higher being?

I see no importance.

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Eh, it gives you hope. In fact all religions gives you hope. Then you have the fear, and some just need explanations. For me, it's because I wish to....live good in the afterlife...And because it's making me a better person to some extent.

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Originally Posted by Attila

Eh, it gives you hope. In fact all religions gives you hope. Then you have the fear, and some just need explanations. For me, it's because I wish to....live good in the afterlife...And because it's making me a better person to some extent.

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you don't need religion to have hope.

Life is beautiful and fantastic without the need of some dogma to explain it.

If you know this is your only life you will get then you will treat it with much more importance.

I think an eternity of living whether it be on this planet or in an after life would be torture.

There is no such thing as absolutes, everything eventually comes to an end.

People don't need the religious crutch they can walk without it. It causes more problems anyway.

All I can say is stop caring about what goes on after your dead becuase there is no answer. Start caring only about what goes on in this life becuase right now it's the only life you might ever get.

Unfortunately I cannot fly, shoot lasers out of my eyes, or live forever now so that's something to look forward to. :P


Now I'm off to sleep.

I would see it diffrently;
The world can only show things that are facts, which are true.

It can't show things that are wrong (this is the turned around definition of wrong).
We can only find things that are wrong by reiterating the contents of of the world.

We can have thoughts that are false (god doesn't throw dice, etc.)

The object of these thoughts can not exist (there are random events, so whatever god can be, he must be shaped in a way so that he does dice; A god that does not does not exist).

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Originally Posted by IronyTaken

same reason because people can be ignorant and it is important to debate these things so people aren't mistaken about something.

Like the guy who posted that if there was no afterlife then this life is useless and I would just kill myself. Or others I have heard saying that if there was no god they wouldn't care about murder.

Those people need a reality check and if that is really the way they think it can become dangerous.

It is important to converse with others on these topics so we can get a better understanding of why they believe a certain way. I sure wish atheists were better understood in America, becuase we are currently the most untrusted and least represented minority.

Some people believe all atheists sprout horns and are dangerous while some people believe all religious people are bat shit crazy and couldn't solve a simple addition problem. It is best that we clear up these mistaken views on those that are still on the sidelines.

In a general sense it still affects us all physically, becuase we can all vote and make decisions to affect our everyday lifes.

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It sounds to me like you want to go up to someone who is perfectly content and happy and try to talk them out of it.

If you're an Atheist, I can see why you're represented that way.

Ignorance is bliss. Let people be happy.

Because, again if you're an Atheist, You're going around telling people who are, again happy, that they're going to rot in the ground forever. Do people want to hear that when they're happy? NO.

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Originally Posted by sagaxxxx

School me dawg because clearly any arguement can NEVER be justified on this topic so why bother? and God loves you as well LOL damn i fcked up your day too huh? however your wrong on one thing, im not religious meaning im not Christian or go to church,rather i sit back and chill and LIVE MY LIFE TOO THE FULLEST and interpret this great book my own way because to believe in God doesnt make a religion, but it WILL be tagged as one by others regardless ;3

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Actually I could refute you on many parts of what you said, but it would be a waste becuase you already believe such absurd things. Tell me do you believe in noah's flood, the man living in a fish for 3 days and the part about a talking snake ect ect?

Next your going to tell me you think evolution is false.

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Originally Posted by IronyTaken

I am arguin that there is no reason to believe in god at the moment, and how irrational it is to believe in something that has zero proof. I am not saying there definately is no god.

Do you know what a species is? An animal beasically becomes another species when it can no longer breed with it's kind. It is not based on looks.

And yes I can "try" to refute a statement if you give one out like that guy has been doing. He says the earth used to have an atmosphere with a frozen layer of ice and I tell him that is impossible and unscientific. Also he was ranting incoherantly about darwin and from what i understand he doesn't think we evolved from a common ancestor of apes, when I can show him proof we did.

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i know, i didnt feel like havin to think which term to use, species sounded good.

your ****in implying it, your sayin it behind your forestry of words...the "how irrational" wouldnt be needed if if you wernt tryin to disprove/belittle. and no reason to beleive in a god right now?

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Originally Posted by V-Opolis

not all animals of a species evolve, some of them could have, some not. such as a brown squirrel havin black fur, not every squirrel will evolve to have black fur, add in migration and all.


(AND MY CUSSING IS NOT FLAMING, JSUT HOW I TALK, don take the added cuss words as offense, id jsut use another word.)

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The fact that some squirrels have genes producing brown fur and some producing black fur is irrelevant to my arguement. Even traits produced by random mutations of genes are shaped by evolution (they are either killed off, or float around in the population).

That also doesn't change the fact that humans and apes exist alongside each other - and therefore one could not be FROM the other, because they are contemporaries.

Also, they are called 'swear' words for a reason, they are offensive. Try not to use them as much.

So...if God is omnipotent, why does he make earth such a shitty place?

God is like that kid in the YouTube video slamming his cat into a wall just because he can.

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Originally Posted by Z0MBiE

so you get them to say what you think they should, they say to you "i am atheist", "i am agnostic", then what?

you won't change what they believe.

give it up, there is no point to this.

theres my 5am rant for the week.

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If you watch the video then you would understand.

It proves my point.

I am not changing what they believe I am only telling them they haven't answered the question.


It would be as if your part of the jury and you must come up with either guilty or not guilty. And you give the judge the answer of I choose neither.

You have basically not answered the question.


if you say you don't believe he is guilty then you automatically fall onto the not guilty side.



Like I said if you watched the video it will prove my point.

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Originally Posted by Jrgsubzero

Kinda like watching a ****** trying to swat away a flying plastic bag.

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did you just call me a ******. :hmm:

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Originally Posted by IronyTaken

you are proof that a person can't answer a question.

I ask you do you believe in a god and you say I am agnostic.

well thank you for not answering the question.


Agnostism stands on it's own when answering the question do you know if a god exists, but it doesn't when asking do you belief a god exists.

watch if you want

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If the question is: "Do you believe God exists?", then why can you not accept "I am undecided." as an answer?

The problem lies with you. Not agnosticism.

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Originally Posted by Z0MBiE

did you just call me a ******. :hmm:

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No, Irony. I was agreeing with you.

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Originally Posted by Z0MBiE

did you just call me a ******. :hmm:

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no he is calling me that becuase he has nothing better to say.

A strawman is all he has.

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Originally Posted by Norrin Radd

If the question is: "Do you believe God exists?", then why can you not accept "I am undecided." as an answer?

The problem lies with you. Not agnosticism.

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undecided is not an answer. You either believe a claim or you don't.

Agnosticism has nothing to do with that question.

Do I believe or not believe in a god?
Yes there may be a middle ground. How can you say someone can not be undecided, uncommitted to either sides?
There is black and white, and then there is gray. I am sure millions of people view this question with a "gray" answer. They do not choose a side to believe.

Like I said, yes I did say I was Agnostic. I brought it up as something I believe, that influences me to say that I have a middle ground view of your question. I did not bring it up to answer whether I believed or not in a god. But it was something I shared, that has to do with why I am not on either side of your question, thus answering your question.

Pretty sure a person's decision about his beliefs isnt like a war where if you dont take sides and you are in the middle, you will get shot anyways.
Until a war among religions come, such labels need not be so distinct.

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Originally Posted by `doll

Watch your own videos when it says Agnostic and Atheist/Theist are two different concepts. So yes agnosticism may stand on its own, because yes it can be attached to the belief of Atheism or Theism. The first video I believe also says Agnostic is not a way of defining a lesser Atheistic view--they are totally different.

What you generally said--"You may not believe but are open to the existence. This is Atheistic Agnostic."

Actually, this is just being Atheistic and varying on how strong you are.

Agnostic, totally different and separate, is if you think that godliness is unknowable and if you do not believe, it is believing in Agnosticism + the view of Atheism.

Isn't that what you've been trying to say?

So you are not making any sense from your first posts to your lasts. You started off by saying they are totally different types of beliefs, and now you're saying Agnostic is an adjective that cannot stand alone as a different belief.

Besides, I thought we were allowed to express our religious beliefs in general, not just answer yes or no to God. Someone can very much so say "well maybe so maybe not" to that question and ALSO be agnostic in thinking it is unknowable.

These two commonly go hand in hand because most Agnostics, thinking it's unknowable, are uncommitted to believing in a god or not believing in a god. Now yes there may be Atheist Agnostics who think its unknowable but still reject the idea, and there may be Theist Agnostics who believe in a god despite it being unknowable.

But you are just trying to put strict labels on things.

God yes or no?--I said I'm Agnostic. I believe in Agnosticism. Then I continued to explain that because it's unknowable to me, my view on this question is that I'm uncommitted to either. My only strict belief is Agnosticism, not direct to the question, but as conversation when I'm posting about my religious beliefs.

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addressing Doll becuase I think don't like ignoring someone posts when they spent time typing it up to direct at me.

I didn't ask if you know there is a god I am asking if you belief in a god.

You have mistaken what I was asking.

I said agnostism is different from an answer to a belief. It is an answer to the question is there a god.

I am asking do you belief there is a god. If you say I am agnostic then you have not answered the question.

Like when I used the court example.

the person is innocent until proven guilty.

You are in the jury and you must come up with either guilty or not guilty. You give the judge the answer as neither. This is not answering whether the person is guilty or not.

If you say I don't believe the person is guilty then you are automatically on the not guilty side.

Now there may be another part on that side being those that believe the person innocent too.

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Originally Posted by IronyTaken

the person is innocent until proven guilty.

You are in the jury and you must come up with either guilty or not guilty. You give the judge the answer as neither. This is not answering whether the person is guilty or not.

If you say I don't believe the person is guilty then you are automatically on the not guilty side.

Now there may be another part on that side being those that believe the person innocent too.

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this is why innocent people end up in jail.

not everything is so black and white.

In conclusion you don't have to know anything to have a belief in it.

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Originally Posted by Z0MBiE

this is why innocent people end up in jail.

not everything is so black and white.

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ok that didn't make sense.
I said innocent until proven guilty, I didn't say guilty until proven innocent.

Why would you insult Him if you are Atheist, and do not believe he exists?

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Originally Posted by `doll

Funny how some Atheists insult God but by doing so are saying He exists?

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Actually if what that picture says is true, it would mean that what is said in the bible is a lie and if anything in the bible is a lie then god is a lie.

So I don't think it's saying he exists at all. Therefore your point would be invalid sir.

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Originally Posted by `doll

Why would you insult Him if you are Atheist, and do not believe he exists?

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The way you're talking makes it seem like Atheists don't even know that others believe in god and they simply don't believe in him because they don't know about him.

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Originally Posted by Leafninja

if anything in the bible is a lie then god is a lie.

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Not true.

Stories are written today with grains of truth, but embellished for unknown reasons, because people are generally stupid.

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Originally Posted by Norrin Radd

No, there's no agree to disagree. This isn't subjective. There's middle ground and your stance is incorrect. I'm not going to agree with you to keep you quiet.

Just letting you know; if the debate is just going around in circles when it needn't be, thread will be locked.

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That's a sophism.

It's not really possible to say:
I do not believe that it's right to say there is definitely a god;
I however say that it's right to say there is definitely a god.

You do not believe in god if you say that in your individual position you can not answer the question of existence.

Your middle ground is there, just not what you pretend it to be.
Agnostics do not believe in god.

You can not make a statement of faith?
Then you do not have it.

[Lock it for what purpose?
Imho it is pretty dumb to lock a thread, because it's evident, that people are still wanting to post (constructively) in for whatever reasons they see fit, but if you want to do that, go ahead.]

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Originally Posted by Ronin

But he would punish those who would not accept hearsay as evidence?
This matter you talk about is a problematic one for theology, because it is not completely resolved.
As soon as you hear a statement on it, it is generally including the act of postponing the problem with ending the argument before you run into inconstancies.

You only know god, if you are god. (Not a sentence I made up, doctrine)

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He does not punish, he just does not let one into his kingdom if he will not believe in him.

Why should god prove himself to you?
If god revealed himself, everybody would believe in him. By not showing himself, he can see thoose who are willing to.
Thats my stance. Don't respond to this, its my veiw. Irony Taken, don't critizise my belifs, you'll just look like a d bag.

All that "hell realms" stuff is just poetry, not in any way aligned with official doctrine, nor ever referenced as anything different than a metaphor with countless purely artistic liberties.

It's some kind of horror-story for faithful people, made to entertain rather than anything else;
Those sins can be described (assuringly free of sin), if they are put into the "educatorial context" of taking place in hell, it's all about voyeurism.