Anyone know what the hell he is talking about? And no one cares whether its an mmorpg or not. They just want to play. I don't see the point of knowing whether a game is being called an mmorpg or not matters much.
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Anyone know what the hell he is talking about? And no one cares whether its an mmorpg or not. They just want to play. I don't see the point of knowing whether a game is being called an mmorpg or not matters much.
Comma, Splice, More, Please,
your opinion is interesting budda,
but I think it fails here: "When an MMO is pushed to its extreme, the result is something akin to Second Life and when an RPG is at its best, the result is the likes of Oblivion and Final Fantasy. But combining the best elements of an MMO and a RPG into one coherent and interesting title is quite a challenge.
It must attain to a persistent world where it allows for both user-interactivity and user-dependency and also allow each individual player to specialize and journey through their own individual story arcs. In other worlds, the true spirit of a MMORPG is a world where each player occupies his/her own niche yet relies on other players to sustain that niche. A MMORPG where one can solo everything is not a MMORPG."
If we were to follow your logic then a true MMORPG would be made by the people in it, problem being the company makes the content so therefor your input into a game is limited to what they provide you with. Second life and Entropia are almost there, users can make what they want (again limited to company's content) but still don't really affect the content of the game just use the content available to produce something unique but yet still with in the developers boundaries.
It's your opinion and no one can take that away (IMO)*
Well in 2nd Life, the company doesnt make much content. They only provide the tools for the users to make the content. Because the content of Second Life is almost entirely player-made, it can't be called an MMORPG, since theres no driving story arc.
An ideal MMORPG would be something like SWG pre-NGE and Ryzom where there is a loose over arching storyline that is largely shaped by users with the company providing regular updates that introduces new contexts for content creation (new maps, new items etc). In both games the company is distanced from actively driving a storyline into its player-base, but rather allows the players to make their own content which drives their own storylines.
Games like WoW and EQ focus heavily on a RPG aspect. If you take away the multi-player aspect of those games, they would still make great single player RPGs.
MMORPG is a concept, you can never have an 'ideal' MMORPG as such, but several games on the current market go close
WoW/DaoC/Final Fantasy/EQ/LOTR/WAR/AoC - these titles are more RPG orientated. They focus on giving players a feeling of embarking on a epic journey. the same feeling one gets from playing a great single-player RPG. Their storylines tend to be very specific (class specific, race specific) and attempts to re-create the same RP feel of single player RPGs within a MMO platform.
EvE/SWG pre-NGE/UO/Entropia/Ryzom/PotBS - these games tend to focus on the MMO aspect. With a player-driven economy and a player-driven storyline at the heart. They tend to have very broad storyline arc, or a scenario to be more precise. The rest of the story is mostly player driven through conflicts between large guilds.
So basically you made the first post with all that text to tell us "there is no real MMORPG"?
Half your original post null and voids the other half.
And still left my question unanswered; What game out now is an MMORPG? you "ideal" MMORPG was a failed attempt to deflect the question(IMO)*
in theory, they are all MMORPG's.
Before you make similar statements, define Role Playing Game. You take the role of your virtual character and develop him according to how you want by means of questing, killing monsters or whatsoever.
The Massive Multiplayer Online is al applicable.
Put those together and you have MMORPG's. What you are talking of are not MMORPG's in the core meaning but "advanced MMORPG's". I personally see all those korean grinders as the alpha MMORPG where better MMORPG's base upon and it improve it accordingly.
For as far as i'm concerned, MMORPG's DONT need a fancy storyline, involving epic quest lines and all that. Sure it's nice, but not having them, doesn't that ,particular game any worse or less MMORPG
MMORPG is a concept
its not like a chair
Concepts are expressed in the physical world, but the expression of concepts are not the same as concepts themselves.
When you try to express a concept you can only express it as accurately as you can or as closely as you can to your understanding of that concept.
Some do it better, some do it poorly.
Those that do it better usually have a more in depth understanding of that concept.
Some game companies have better understanding of the concept of MMORPG and thus make games that encompass as accurately as they could the characteristics of the MMORPG concept.
Other game companies that do not understand the concept make games that gets boring fast.
MMORPG is also a genre.
As a genre it is signified by particular traits/characteristics such as persistent world, character/avatar growth etc etc.
MMORPG both as a concept and a genre exist in abstract. Those games that attempt to represent and express the idea MMORPG can be measured by how accurately they express and represent the MMORPG concept.
So no they don't exist is what I read, now if you read your first post you will see you point out they the exist. Concept or not, in theory or not I'm not sure you even know what you're saying. Your first post could of been MMORPG's don't exist except in concept and theory.... instead of a non guided rant followed by deflection of any questioning of your rant, In theory and in concept you maybe right and wrong and that's the great thing about theory and concept there isn't fact or a clear cut picture.
My point have a point of view and stick to it. (IMO)*
i dont see what inconsistency you're trying to point out.
Of course the concept of MMORPG exists, otherwise why would game companies call their games MMORPGs, but MMORPGs dont exist in the same notion as how a chair 'exists'.
It seems that you yourself are a bit confused.
If you want to have an argument over the meaning of the word 'exist' i suggest do so on a different forum.
Your words not mine, saying it's a concept in later posts doesn't make your first post correct.
Your first post says they exist but yet in the same post you put forward the idea they can't exist(which is it), now apparently the concept exists.
So we come to the conclusion "MMORPGs" Don't exist "Concept of MMORPGs" Do exist.
Making my first response valid and my question "What game out now is an MMORPG?" unanswerable
(IMO)*
(a)Sorry, that is plain rubbish.Take Silkroad Online for example, they have more resources than a lot of pay 2 play games, due to large purchases from the Item Mall and see what they can do with that income. The europe expansion isn't just new armor, weapons and skills. That statement is just really generic.
(b)Again, that's just not right. Every MMORPG i know has solo capabilities. Somone previously posted that he or she didn't understand, where you generalised that when you achieve everything solo, it isn't an mmorpg. Here it doesn't say you can solo everything. EVERY mmorpg has solo'ing, name me one your "true MMORPG" that hasn't, and that excludes guild wars since that isn't a real mmorpg in theory.
So what you're saying if i am getting this correct, is that i *cant* say MMORPG this MMORPG that if they exist only in abstract.
Well people comment on abstract concepts all the idea. In fact most intellectual discussions centre around debates over abstract concepts.
Theres a subtle difference between soloable and having solo aspects. Yes EVERY MMORPG has solo aspects, but prime MMORPGs examples such as WOW have contents that are impossible to solo, thus making these games not solo-able.
What i meant by MMORPG =\= f2p, is that MMORPG is not restricted by f2p like how the Chinese market seems to be viewing it.
Nope not exactly, you referred to games as "MMORPGs" and players understanding "MMORPGs", not to understanding the "Concept of MMORPGs" or being based on the "concept of MMORPGs"
The concept of a "flying carpet" exists but it doesn't make my carpet a flying one just coz I say so. So in the same way a game can be based on the "concept of MMORPGs" but that doesn't make it a 'MMORPG". And your "concept of MMORPGs" and "MMORPGs" is an opinion not fact and that's what get me you make a post that comes across as factual but lack just that.(IMO)*
He's basically saying all F2P games are rubbish to him 'cause its not like WoW or other P2P game, another WoW fanatic I see -.-' caught in the hype.
-_-' So what if some people don't understand what proper RPGing and MMOing is about?
http://www.cdcgames.net/news070323.html
There you go. Read it for yourself. 46.5m users, compared to what? 5m in China of WoW subscribed players?
Make that 3.5m+ in China, I just found a source that says that.
http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/...ame-time_N.htm
Okay I'm sorry for saying Chinese people are poor, but most of them are poor which is why they choose f2p games. budda or w/e chooses to ignor that fact.
China is in general a lot cheaper than the west, that's the reason why a lot of western items are made in china.
Next to that, China is one of the biggest countries in the world, the poverty scale in china is obviously a lot bigger than in f.e. Belgium, because in absolute numbers, china has 120x as much inhabitants compared to belgium, so absolute poverty numbers in china are bigger. That, however, doesn't mean china prefers f2p games over P2P, because they're "poor".
Check a HDI-map, the areas where poverty overruled are the outskirts and western china, mountain tribers, and so on. That is also the place where gaming isn't popular or known at all. Gaming industry happens in Beijing and the eastern districts. The poverty ratio in the south, west and centre of china is a lot less than in the outskirts.
Blaming the f2p phenomenon in china on poverty is a false statement, the poverty regions rarely even come in contact with games.
The second reason is because of the custom of having f2p mmorpg's. If chinese gaming industrials suddenly changed their mind and started making everything P2P, they'd notice a severe lack of intrest in their games.
And there you have it, meaning of RPG.Quote:
While RPG stands for role-playing games where a human-player through an avatar plays the role of a character (usually a hero) through a story arc/improvised scenario within a fantasy world.
1)Human-player playing an avatar
2)Avatar has a role of a character ( USUALLY but NOT necessarily a hero )
3)Character is in a story/scenario within a fantasy world
Now lets look at games like Planeshift / WoW ( RP Servers ),Quote:
-MMOAPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Action Playing Games) are not MMORPGs. Lineage and its babies are not a 'real' MMORPG.
1)Played by humans? - YES
2)Humans control an avatar? -YES
3)Avatar has a role? -YES
4)Character is in a story/scenario? -YES
And you have it a REAL MMORPG!! IT EXIST OMG!
Mmorpg exists if players role-play. It exists once players start to roleplay. Most mmos have a story and players can choose to play along the story or be silent and explore the game on their own. Ever played a rpg where you walked into a bar/restaurant and you see NPCs you cannot talk to? Well in mmorpg if You are the person roleplaying and u see other players not roleplaying, you can consider those players non-talking NPCs. :p
Games like lineage or even WoW: BC , PW , and some others, allow player-controlled towns. That makes some territorial controls, so the world isnt stagnant, not to mention updates for the mmos.Quote:
They are linear, do not have content, players do not influence the world through the storyline, and the persistent world is stagnant.
Cash Shops? Most f2p games have cash shops. They are called Free To Play but players can CHOOSE whether to buy extra items using cash. So they are not EXACTLY free to play. Thats where the funds come from. Not to mention wat Acclaim is doing now, In-Game-Advertising, thats where the fund comes from.Quote:
-MMORPG =\= f2p
There are some great f2p MMORPGs out there (Mabinogi), but true MMORPGs are p2p, because the company needs the fund to develop regular content updates.
No 1 is able to solo an mmorpg all the way. At a certain point of the game, a player will HAVE to party up because soloing will be impossible.Quote:
-MMORPG =\= soloable
If u can solo a MMORPG why not just go play a single player game.
Okay, lets look at the situation.Quote:
Okay I'm sorry for saying Chinese people are poor, but most of them are poor which is why they choose f2p games. budda or w/e chooses to ignor that fact.
1)You cant read/type english well. You have f2p games in chinese ( which you are good at). Which game will you play, p2p english or f2p chinese?
2)2 games are out in the market, 1 is 1 year old and p2p, another is brand new and f2p. The 1 in p2p is probably better developed and stable. You like to be one of the engineers of a game, which game will you choose?
Now lets define poor in your case : Poor - having little or no money, goods, or other means of support.
To have "Little" you need a comparison. Are you comparing the income of a chinese worker in china to another in US?
Lets say the chinese worker earns US$100 a month. In his village he can buy a comfortable meal and live off the $100 for a month or two. The worker in US earns $500 a month but spent it in less than 2 weeks. Whos poorer? The chinese worker or the US worker?
Oh god I read through all that >.< Anyways, budda is just trying to stir up a conversation and he is right that there are some mmorpgs that doesn't exactly have much role playing. There are very few good storylines in games. Nostale and Mabinogi have a good storyline.
Also, drop the subject on the chinese =_= It's annoying...
I sort-of agree with you on the solo part. If a MMORPG is soloable the whole way through, then you should just go play Skies of Arcadia ;)
I don't agree with Buddha's first post. My reasons are all found in Darkknight's post.
1)Human-player playing an avatarQuote:
While RPG stands for role-playing games where a human-player through an avatar plays the role of a character (usually a hero) through a story arc/improvised scenario within a fantasy world.
And there you have it, meaning of RPG.
2)Avatar has a role of a character ( USUALLY but NOT necessarily a hero )
3)Character is in a story/scenario within a fantasy world
Now lets look at games like Planeshift / WoW ( RP Servers ),Quote:
-MMOAPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Action Playing Games) are not MMORPGs. Lineage and its babies are not a 'real' MMORPG.
1)Played by humans? - YES
2)Humans control an avatar? -YES
3)Avatar has a role? -YES
4)Character is in a story/scenario? -YES
And you have it a REAL MMORPG!! IT EXIST OMG!
Mmorpg exists if players role-play. It exists once players start to roleplay. Most mmos have a story and players can choose to play along the story or be silent and explore the game on their own. Ever played a rpg where you walked into a bar/restaurant and you see NPCs you cannot talk to? Well in mmorpg if You are the person roleplaying and u see other players not roleplaying, you can consider those players non-talking NPCs.
There is a distinction between role play and class play.
In games such as Lineage, PW, 2Moons, etc etc, you class play. You pick a class, and its stuck with you forever from the beginning to the end. The very nature of that character, in other words its 'role' never changes. If you pick a healer, you'll always have to be a healer through and through. In these games, the player has no choice or power to change their character's roles. They can choose skill trees, equipment and such, but these changes are merely superficial, and hardly compensates for the lack of Roleplaying content in these games.
In this sense, permanent class systems and skill tree system kills roleplay.
Roleplaying is a very complex system of characterizations. Essentially it involves human players to take on alternative personas aka alter egos within an imagined space. It involves choices, that affect and develop the playing character's personality trait. In MMORPGs focused on RP, whenever a player makes choice, he/she is not merely choosing whether he/she'll be using lightning attacks at level 50, but rather personality traits such as whether her alter ego is good/evil, brave/coward, just/shrewd etc etc.
Furthermore many Korean/Chinese MMORPG titles are conspicuous by in their lack of a coherent over-arching storyline. Yes they all have a storyline, but it has no impact on the game whatsoever. Its background information that can be totally ignored. In fact, in most of these games you can grind to level 100 without doing any quest.
In a true RPG, the storyline is forced upon the player, you can not progress without advancing through the storyline. In some RPGs, the storyline takes the form of an pre-set epic, in other RPGs the storyline is dynamic and endings are determined by the choices a player makes during their journey. But what they share in common is the immersive story-telling magic that forces a player to advance through the game in sync with the unraveling of a storyline.
If the content of a MMORPG can be accessed without any need to advance through a storyline then its not a MMO'RPG'.
Roleplay and class play are different
In MMORPGS player play 'roles' (charaterizations, personas, alter egos.)
In MMOAPGS players play classes (knight, mage, healer)
the word role when used in the context of 'roleplay' does not mean the same thing as the everyday use of the word role thats synonymous with the notion of job, class, function.
The thing is, who cares? Pretty much any MMO with RPG elements are classified under MMORPGs. You create a character, you play a role in the game, as just another Rogue/Warrior/Hunter, whatever. Role play doesn't specificly have to be all DnD-style with proper talk and all that. In your first post, you listen UO, EQ, SWG and Saga of Ryzom as MMORPGs, but I don't see how players affect the world in those games? Doesn't that make those games not 'real' mmorpgs?
If you want to nit pick so much on these kinda things, then Face of Makind is a real MMORPG.
Also, about another post of yours.
Can't the same be said for 1 game in the other category?Quote:
MMORPG is a concept, you can never have an 'ideal' MMORPG as such, but several games on the current market go close
WoW/DaoC/Final Fantasy/EQ/LOTR/WAR/AoC - these titles are more RPG orientated. They focus on giving players a feeling of embarking on a epic journey. the same feeling one gets from playing a great single-player RPG. Their storylines tend to be very specific (class specific, race specific) and attempts to re-create the same RP feel of single player RPGs within a MMO platform.
EvE/SWG pre-NGE/UO/Entropia/Ryzom/PotBS - these games tend to focus on the MMO aspect. With a player-driven economy and a player-driven storyline at the heart. They tend to have very broad storyline arc, or a scenario to be more precise. The rest of the story is mostly player driven through conflicts between large guilds.
You say UO is more to the MMO side, but the same can be said for the role-playing in that game. Many people roleplay in UO too. WoW has a player-run economy with its auction house and how can you even list WAR under a category when its not even released yet?
I read like 25% of it before I scrolled down and realized how much more I had to go.
So here's what I have to say: mmorpgs die. Live with it.
Do you ever get tired of these mindless debates? You barged in and posted a topic saying how the present day MMORPGs is actually fake, and the argument of misconceptions and proverty ensues. Amazing, to you at least, but not really. But it's dumb that you had actually to post that topic, you have options not to, but you did. It showed you need a wall of text to prove how good you are in proving us wrong of our conceptions towards MMORPGs. But in the end, your mind is confounded with the question, why make such a big deal out of MMORPGs?
People play them for fun. For me, it's slow and horrendously slow to go through the storyline (provided if the storyline is long enough, yeah NWN2 is one example), i don't want to do every freakin' quests there is to advance through. I just want to bash up mobs and backstab people in PvP.
Just play the games, stop whining/debating/arguing/complaining.
some of buddha's statements are true.
if you choose to solo in an MMORPG, then that would take away the purpose of the MMO part, since all your really doing is RPGing and not connecting to the "online" aspect of the game such as communicating with the community, e.g. partying.
Honenstly your kinda wrong, along with the OP.
Many people solo in MMORPGs but they still use it for the community features. You have more than the party system to able to communicate with the other players.
I prefer to solo in MMORPGs. Why dont I just play a single player RPG? Cause it lacks several things I enjoy.
1. competitive economy
2. guilds
3. If you do know you cant solo this or that, you know have the chance of getting help one way or the other.
Now to the OP's farse.
First lets go with some definitions. All definitions are taken from this well established company: Merriam-Webster
Quote:
conceive
Main Entry: con·ceive
Pronunciation: k&n-'sEv
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): con·ceived; con·ceiv·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French conceivre, from Latin concipere to take in, conceive, from com- + capere to take -- more at HEAVE
transitive verb
1 a : to become pregnant with (young) <conceive a child> b : to cause to begin : ORIGINATE <a project conceived by the company's founder>
2 a : to take into one's mind <conceive a prejudice> b : to form a conception of : IMAGINE <a badly conceived design>
3 : to apprehend by reason or imagination : UNDERSTAND <unable to conceive his reasons>
4 : to have as an opinion <I cannot conceive that he acted alone>
intransitive verb
1 : to become pregnant
2 : to have a conception -- usually used with of <conceives of death as emptiness>
synonym see THINK
- con·ceiv·er noun
Quote:
conception
Main Entry: con·cep·tion
Pronunciation: k&n-'sep-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English concepcioun, from Anglo-French concepcion, from Latin conception-, conceptio, from concipere
1 a (1) : the process of becoming pregnant involving fertilization or implantation or both (2) : EMBRYO, FETUS b : BEGINNING <joy had the like conception in our eyes -- Shakespeare>
2 a : the capacity, function, or process of forming or understanding ideas or abstractions or their symbols b : a general idea : CONCEPT c : a complex product of abstract or reflective thinking d : the sum of a person's ideas and beliefs concerning something
3 : the originating of something in the mind
synonym see IDEA
- con·cep·tion·al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
- con·cep·tive /-'sep-tiv/ adjective
Now by those definitions, the OP is incorrect. Here we go........Quote:
exist
Main Entry: ex·ist
Pronunciation: ig-'zist
Function: intransitive verb
Etymology: Latin exsistere to come into being, exist, from ex- + sistere to stand, stop; akin to Latin stare to stand -- more at STAND
1 a : to have real being whether material or spiritual <did unicorns exist> <the largest galaxy known to exist> b : to have being in a specified place or with respect to understood limitations or conditions <strange ideas existed in his mind>
2 : to continue to be <racism still exists in society>
3 a : to have life or the functions of vitality <we cannot exist without oxygen> b : to live at an inferior level or under adverse circumstances <the hungry existing from day to day>
MMORPG is a broad term that classifies what genre a game is. The definition of what RPG and MMORPG are very different. But there are certain traits that do crossover into both.
Developers start with an idea and then create it into something that can be conceived by the players. So in truth, to the developer, their conception of what they developed is in fact, ideal. Due to the broad term of what an MMORPG is, it does exist in this category.
To put it simple to the OP, the the conception/ideal is based on the developer's thoughts of what a MMORPG should be.
To the OP, your misconceptions of what a MMORPG and RPG starts with your failure to understand the definitions of what you are talking about.
Please understand, you are talking to a person who has played RPGs almost since their beginnings. I have seen them evolve from the minature based game they once were into the single player RPG and MMORPGs they are now. I do know the difference and understand what defines both genre. You seem to have misunderstood the definiton of what both actually mean.
Now in the terms of existence..... basically your "chair theory", you failed. Only those who are desperate to win something they know they lost would compare what is real to what is fiction. You "chair thoery" is moot.
Just finished reading the first post and I have to admit it was nice. It's not something I would've really thought about if you hadn't pointed it out...but yeah, what you said does make sense.