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Thread: Getting rid of the holy trinity is NOT "The future"

  1. #1
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    Default Getting rid of the holy trinity is NOT "The future"

    I cannot stand all these MMOs being released under the point of no holy trinity.
    For those of you who don't know, that means tank, dps, and healer.
    It makes instance running with others pretty meaningless.
    You run in, kill everything, and run out.
    I find it so much more enjoyable to use strategy; keep aggro as a tank, drop the hp with the dps, and keep the tank alive with the healer.
    So much more communication is required and therefore forges a lot of nice friendships and a great time...
    Now i'm not saying all "non-holy-trinity" games are necessarily bad, I just think it's a silly idea.

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    'raiding' just doesn't work without the trinity e.g gw2. **** that's so terrible.

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    I don't know about you guys, but I find ''Pure Holy Trinity boring. Tank just blindly tanks, and Healer just stands there and heals. I know, it's an extreme example here. If players, in pvp, know to ignore tough players and try to kill off glass-cannons or more fragile classes first, then why can't monsters do so as well ? Why are those evils and oh-so-powerful monsters and bosses so stupid to ignore the tank for like 5 seconds, then kill the healers first in like 2 seconds ?

    [Off topic paragraph]
    What about skill rotation ? Every player knows when/how to use CC, stun, AoE Fear, Knockback and such. Why can't enemy/bosses do the same ? Either tank is lower on HP, Silence healer, stun tank, and then kill tank in 2 seconds. Or simply AoE Fear everyone and stun healer, and kill him off ?

    [back to topic]
    If there's no Holy Trinity at all, however, then it's pure chaos. Everyone zerks in, and DPS. And it's boring. No tactics or strategy. I'd rather play XBox Button Smasher instead if that's the case.

    IMO, the answer is not with Pure Holy Trinity or Not at All.
    It has to be a mix of the two; Almost every class should be able to fill any Role, but some can do one or two roles better than others. Doomguard's role could be either DPS or Tank, maybe with some Debuffs. Champion maybe Tank or DPS and some Buffs. Assassin is a DPS, but could be Avoidance Off-Tank sometimes, for example.

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    Tank healer dps? Well basically every game has this. Though there's always arena games that have no healer. I personally like knockbacks, gap-closers, stealth, walls, shields, buffs, and skillshot-modifiers (gravitational wells that can slingshot your skillshots or divert enemy skillshots). The more complexity the better, though I do love my burst+disengage+wait for cooldowns team composition the best.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ASNZern View Post
    Long post
    I sort of disagree.

    Someone here said it's all about variety.

    He's just about right, EQ2 and RO. Had the most diverse classes, but also still sticks to pure trinity. Yes, some classes didn't fit in a party. But however those classes didn't mind. I mean Assassins didn't really belong in a MVP set party(Unless it was for one clutch reason, can't think of one), but that's sticks to it's esque. Assassins aren't supposed to be in parties anyways.

    Agree with this whole thread though, I hate that they're removing the trinity. Why couldn't they just improve it or add another role.
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    I'm not a fan of the Holy Trinity. Tank tanks, DPS dps, and Healers heal until everything dies. If that's strategy, then that is the most mindless strategy ever. It doesn't matter if every class has subclass that can do everything like the examples of RIFT. It's still the same concept. It also still doesn't change the fact that almost everyone wants to DPS and have to wait an hour just for a tank or healer.

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    FFXI BOOM thread closed

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalith View Post
    FFXI BOOM thread closed
    I didn't get to play it. How was it Do tell ?
    Also, how was Starwars Galaxies ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heartyace View Post
    So you'd rather everyone a dps, and dumber content so zerk can happen. DCUO plays it well, if you're want to be a dps. Change to a dps if you want to be an essential role change to it. Even then though, all classes input dps, the healers aren't only healing normal attacking too.That's not even what I want either, I want a game where there are a damn load of classes that can provide different things to a party. Perfect example vanilla lineage 2, Ro and EQ2. That would be way better then this class switching thing coming in to play.
    I don't think that is what he was saying at all. He was saying that the holy trinity is boring and overplayed. Which he is not incorrect about. Tank & Spank make game content just as boring as DPS brawlers. Especially when you have more than one kind-of DPS class, because that is just going to leave it open to bias. Say I'm playing an Archer, which is a mid-range DPS class, and I am looking for a party. I'm going to be passed up for people who are playing the two handed classes. There is really no where for me to fit in unless I choose to reroll as a class that is more popular. This leads to more generic game play and less individuality among the gaming population.

    Sure, everyone being a DPS may be easier but no one is going to feel left out due to the class they choose. However, if you want to stick to the triquetra then can we at least get it done in a decent way? How about we only have three classes: Tank, DPS, Magi. The Tank can use any one handed weapon and shield and heavy armor, the DPS class can use any weapon in the game (bow, swords, etc) without a shield and with leather armor, and the magi can use any form of magic from summoning to healing and wears regular clothing. This would allow an individual to create a character fits entirely with their own play style but still have the ability to play different roles when needed.

    Yes, I know that is similar to an ARPG, but I'd love to see it implicated in an mmorpg.

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    I think both ways have their advantages.

    Basically you can but MMORPGs in two categories:
    Category #1 - each class is great in one aspect but sucks in others
    Category #2 - each class can do everything some way

    Advantages #1:
    - working together with other classes is a great benefit, so even if there is no exp bonus for partying, parties are actually useful
    - you feel more connected to your class and feel more like role-playing it, e.g. if you are the healer and can only heal, you will automatically be the one who helps others, because that's what your good at, you won't go kill monsters, because you can't deal damage to them anyway, except maybe undead, where you can shine with you exorcism
    - combat is ALOT more strategical, instead of everyone bashing at the enemy, you have to tank, you have to protect your healer and mage, you have to focus on healing and buffing, you have to mob monsters, you have to know where to place your AoE effects, etc. one mistake of anyone in the group can mean that the whole party is wiped (dead priest, no heal, all dead shortly afterwards)

    Disadvantages #1:
    - some classes can't really play solo effectively (and for some strange reason there are quite some people who play MMORPG and still want to play alone)
    - 1vs1 PVP will always be completely unbalanced unless it's a mirror match, team vs team battles can still be really fun and strategical but depend on a good team combination (so randomly throwing teams together won't really work well)
    - you have to depend a lot on your party so if you have a bad player in your group it can ruin the whole experience, better only play with good friends or people who made themselves a name (again adds to role-playing, though!)

    Advantages #2:
    - you can easily play the game solo, no matter what class you choose and possibly only need to group up for group instances
    - 1vs1 PVP can be completely balanced with some effort from the developer
    - you don't really have to rely on party members, you can group of with foreigners and without even talking to them just bash through the monster in the instance and somehow win, even if someone occasionally dies, random grouping works better

    Disadvantages #2:
    - often very hard to find a group, because everybody prefers playing alone, because if there is an Exp bonus for partying, it's usually not worth it because you don't know if the other person can level as effectively as you and two people bashing on the same monster usually doesn't mean that you can kill the monster double as fast (because you also need to run to the next monster and so on, which is not faster no matter how big the party is)
    - game tries to somehow force partying on your through some mechanism (e.g. can't enter instance without group or monsters being very hard so it's not possible to kill even one alone)
    - no real role-playing in these games, everybody just seems to be a gamer wanting to play mostly alone and partying up only because they have to
    - combat lacks strategy, it's usually just have well you can bash your skills and knowing when to cast which skill, but there is not much strategy involving group play

  11. #11
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    The issue for me is when classes can only fill one or two of those roles, games where each class can fulfill each role in their own unique way are always more fun to play.

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    I don't like the trinity, as it puts way too much focus on healing your way through any damage received, which I find to be rather bland, and frequently makes a joke of encounters with anything that doesn't do obscene amounts of damage since your healing ability is balanced around being able to compete with said obscene amount of damage. This is certainly not a necessary thing as only MMORPGs do this. There should be more focus on avoiding damage in the first place or winning before you get wiped out, like in every other combat game genre ever.

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    I agree with you Rei.
    Even with Holy Trinity, if the healing could only prolong the fight a bit, instead of totally mitigate the damage received, then there will be some tactics and strategy.

    But then again, it's annoying that you have to jump around and dodge around for EVERY SINGLE FIGHT WITH EVERY SINGLE MOB.

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    holy trinity is good for pvp. or any variation of roles for different classes.

    pve i really couldn't care less, lol. they could always make it so that each class has a viable tank/dps/heal role, but for end-game pve some just aren't as optimal

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