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Thread: Casual and Hardcore; Grouping and Soloing

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    Default Casual and Hardcore; Grouping and Soloing

    Threads have been very stale theses days.

    TL;DR: 2 questions, you can answer both or just one. Doesn't really matter.
    1. How do you feel about the two classified grouped, Casual and Hardcore. Which should be catered to. How should the other side be rewarded
    2. Do you feel like Grouping should be the better option in MMOs or should grouping be an activity.

    I recently came out of a game that started to shift the balance to the more casual market, as the hardcore market was too "Exclusive". Casual players weren't able to contest with players that played more than them. I was one the, so called "Hardcores" and didn't really see it from that point. I felt that even if they weren't able to contest with us, they have the opportunity to by playing the game eventually catch up with us. I believe the Hardcore community should be catered to rather than the casual community, while the casual community gets events to help them bridge the gap.

    As for grouping, I always enjoyed that part of MMOs. I'd say MMOs should have grouping as a faster option of getting through the game while soloing allows for some individual growth. Such as Story, upgrading armor, or leveling profession.

    In any case, what's your point of view on this.
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    Shadowsworn's Sandwich Reputation: 67
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    hmm

    as some might remember my favourite game was DAoC (since i'm kinda lurking in every daoc thread :P ). the game was a mixture of both. everyone could acquire all gear ( it wasnt even that complicated to get it since you could just craft it .. well that was up till atlantis-addon *spitsonatlantis*), the only difference between hardcores and casuals was in pvp. the people who played more could gather more RP ( realm points you got through killing ppl of different factions) and thus increase your Realm Rank ( which led to you getting more points to invest into abilities both passive and active). the abilities were kinda good/strong but the main prob for most was that when you got to RR5 you were calculated as a lvl 51 instead of a lvl 50 (max lvl = 50) when you dealt dmg to another player/received dmg from another player. that was a pretty big hurdle for some since it made some fights pretty unfair. so the casuals just stuck to pve and pve was tons of fun bc of the communities/guilds. ( see below )

    at the same time the game FORCED you to party, without party you couldnt do jackshit (well you eventually could but it took literally ages). this encouraged the people to build up really big guilds/communities and people HAD to communicate to succeed which enforced socialising. the gaming market was different back then though, i dont think this is gonna work today, i have to admit though that it was the most fun time in my "gaming-life". people were helpful, friendly and able to socialise. it was kinda the same back with vanilla wow.
    personally i do not know if i had the time for something like that any more either so i cant really answer. i'd wish for a bit more party play in modern mmos though.

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    To be fair though they should do what ever makes them the most money, after all that is the reason they are doing it.

    As to my personal opinion,
    An achievement isn't an achievement if you don't have to accomplish something in order to achieve it.
    Solo vs. Grouping? For daily game play I think there are strong advantages to both so they should be balanced without limiting someone who wishes to only go one way or the other.
    For periodic high end events/competitions then I don't mind if grouping is required because team play can be a strong element in competition.
    Play hard. Play smart. Win.
    Work hard. Live smart. Prosper.

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    Honestly I don't see casual/hardcore as anything to do with a game. To me, a casual player is somebody who schedules game time around their life, hardcore players schedule life around their game time. Personal opinion of course. As for the game style itself, since I assume when you say hardcore or softcore game you're referring to how hard/easy the game is, how grindy, etc, I think that kind of ties in to my solo/group opinion.

    To me, an MMO should be a single player game with optional grouping during leveling and mandatory grouping for end game (at least for maximum progression). My progress through the game should not be forced to halt if I can't find anybody to play with, and I especially don't want to have to play at somebody elses pace when I'm just grinding or questing. WoW actually does this well, at least to a point. The solo adventure to end game is a lot of fun. I think they need more to do end game, although I think they do a fairly good job of balancing solo/group content for end game, but there just needs to be more activities.

    To me it should be like this, more or less:
    Crafting: Solo experience up until end game. Crafting should be hard but fun, not the mindless click fest of things like WoW. It should be like FF14, preferably even more detailed. Minigames or some such that determine the power of what you craft, and there most definitely should be a failure state if you fail too hard at the game. Also, instanced resource nodes...for the love of god.
    *Endgame crafting Raids: Should be able to craft entry level raid gear in order to make sure crafting is viable. Should be able to use crafting mats obtained in raiding to craft progressively better raid gear, again making sure crafting remains viable. The best gear in the game should come from crafting materials obtained in the highest level raid, using the best gear from the bosses as a material component. This will make crafters valued in the guild while not taking anything away from raiders since you must raid to get the crafters those materials anyway.
    *Endgame crafting solo: Should have lots of toys to make, mounts, vanity items, potions/food for your raiding guild members. Should be able to create the best solo gear in the game. Crafting, to me, is the ultimate end game for soloers.

    Leveling instances: Should be entirely optional but should provide some kind of unique reward. Maybe unique cosmetics, pets, etc. These things always draw people in, people love toys. These instances should be used as training tools for getting people ready for endgame instancing/raiding and should scale to level so that guilds could even use them as such. These should not be doable by solo players like you can currently do in WoW by trashing lower level instances since that would completely defeat the purpose of having special pets/cosmetics/etc that reward you for grouping. Crafters should also be able to use the pets/cosmetics/etc to make even fancier versions. Is it obvious I like crafting? I like crafting.

    I am rambling apparently and seem to have gone way off topic, but I feel like I've typed too much to simply erase it, so I'll stop now. TLDR: I am heavily in favor of skill based grinding, if that makes any sense. I could go into tons more detail but...yea. Sorry, lol.

    <3 crafting

    Just to put this a little back on topic: This is actually my single biggest gripe with FF14. In order to progress your personal story (including unlocking mounts and other basic features) you are forced to do instances. Do not like this at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Geffreyy View Post
    I think olf Final Fantasy XI handled grouping the best. I haven't played in a while so I don't know how the game has progressed. I've heard that grouping is no longer required.

    In the game, if you wanted the get exp you basically HAD to group. Soloing was almost not an option. Furthermore, unlike most mmorpgs where there is high mob density and low HP mobs that die very fast, the game had high health, hard hitting mobs. Each mob required upwards of 2 minutes to kill and required some kind of tank, Paladin, Warrior or Ninja main as well as a healer. Furthermore, to kill mobs faster you had to be aware of each party members weapons, what weaponskills those weapons have, what element those weaponskills are and when your party members have enough meter (forget the name) to cast the weapon skill, so that you could effectively chain your weapon skills. Mages had to pay attention to the weaponskill chain elements and magic burst on top of the weaponskill chain within a specified short time to further increase the damage.

    Since the game required grouping there were always groups available to join. There was a search option to seek out online players and you could filter by class and lvl range.

    I feel that grouping has to be incentivized in this manner otherwise people will always prefer to do boring solo grind and this reduces the overall enjoyability and playability of the game.
    I think the key word there is incentivize. There should be bonuses, even substantial bonuses, for playing in a group. There should never be a penalty for playing solo though. More options are better than fewer every time, and some people just don't like to group at all. No reason to remove solo players from your potential market base.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Heartyace View Post
    I understand that you have strong feelings, but lets be less offensive.

    The reason why Casuals and Hardcores play a part in gameplay is because, when a Casual can't become as powerful as the Hardcores. They complain, the game must then shift towards a more casual play style to cater to them. I.E Wakfu Relics used to be very end game items, now they're so common that everyone has at least 2.
    It seems bad now, but keep in mind that once true endgame content rolls around (level 190-200), drop rates on relics will essentially be the same, if not lower, than the old drop rates. So while I'm not fond of the current system either, I realize we're not at endgame quite yet.

    We should be getting some real hardcore content come December to appease people looking a real challenge.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BetaGods123 View Post
    It seems bad now, but keep in mind that once true endgame content rolls around (level 190-200), drop rates on relics will essentially be the same, if not lower, than the old drop rates. So while I'm not fond of the current system either, I realize we're not at endgame quite yet.

    We should be getting some real hardcore content come December to appease people looking a real challenge.
    Ok, I don't want to digress this in to a wakfu thread. So the game has been out of 6 years. Why on earth is it still acceptable to say "It'll get better as soon as it hits this point". Relics should be just that Relics. You should be able to upgrade relics making it an actual end game equip. Not just collecting them. They ruined the market by revamping the entire game w/o making any money sinks. The game has no real challenge yet. But you wait till next patch, like we said last time. The game has potential, but they aren't using it, and I think that's why we stay with it till next time.

    Anyways, lets stay on topic.
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