Discussion - About Jesus

[Icy]

I don't know if this will be againts the rules to express our personnal point of vue againts a "Holy" figure. If so, please delete this thread and forgive my rudeness.

Throught what so many years of living in a society that's been filled with countless different religions and their branches. We often hear, god this, god that. However, when we look at the definition of a God, can we really consider Jesus as a God? I, for myself which is not a christian nor do i believe in any religion, doesn't consider Jesus as superior being. It's not because I dont believe in a omni-present being on top of everything, it's because that everything that Jesus did, in which I heard or lernt from this society, it's pretty much possible in my head. For me, I just believe that Jesus is a very smart human that had the knowledge to control the "ignorant" civilization back in the time. By "Ignorant" i meant the civilization back then what more simple minded than us before ( intellectual) and due of their personnal affairs, Jesus' morals was able to convince them and so on.

Also, I do not feel grateful for Jesus who people claimed that he died for humanity nor do I believe it's true. By this, I meant that he just died( ? ) because he stood for what he believed. Also there's that mystery it was a huge set up or not. Was he dead on the cross? or not? It's still a black story which scientist are trying to dig up evidence.

So now, what are your opinions on Jesus?


By the way -

-We're not talking about god's existence
- We're not talking about the religion
- We're not comparing any religion
- We're not flaming
- We're being mature and serious.


I will not tolerate any flames toward a person who expresses his opinion. Therefore, I will report any flames immediately.

[Jaydude]

well i kinda think like you about this ,so i guess I'd agree with you to some extent.

[availer]

Well first i should explain what i believe or think. As my religion believes in all the prophets and that theyre messages had been edited and the prophet mohamed SAAW was the last messenger. Jesus isnt god, he was a prophet, who had the job bestowed on him to spread the word of god. He did not die on the cross, which is another belief. Neither were the people at that time stupid, they were pretty much as clever as us logically considering their humans, they just didnt know as many facts. To be honest philosphy and science increased at a more dramatic rate than now.

But i see where your coming and i respect your opinion on this particular thing.

These are translated extracts from the quran concerning jesus. I dont think theyre 100% perfect but theyre better than nothing.

Say: “We believe in God and what is revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and what was entrusted to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have surrendered.”(3:84)

God sent all the prophets with the same purpose, and Jesus was not different from them:

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming what was before him, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein is guidance and light, confirming that which was before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition to those who are careful.”(5:46) “...Jesus, son of Mary, said: O Children of Israel! See! I am the messenger of God to you, confirming what was before me in the Torah, and bringing good news of a messenger who will come after me, whose name is Ahmad (the Praised One).” (61:6)
O Mary! God gives you glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near (unto God). He will speak to mankind in his cradle and in his man-hood, and he is one of the righteous. She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal has touched me? He said: So (it will be). God creates what He wills. If He decrees a thing, He says to it only: Be! and it is. And he will teach him the Book and the wisdom, and the Torah and the Gospel. And will make him a messenger to the Children of Israel, (saying): I come to you with a sign from your Lord. See! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by God’s leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by God’s leave. And I announce to you what you eat and what you store up in your houses. Here truly is a portent for you, if you are to be believers. And (I come) confirming what was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of what was forbidden to you. I come to you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to God and obey me. God is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him. This is a straight path. But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of God? The disciples said: We will be God’s (cause’s) helpers. We believe in God, and bear you witness that we have surrendered (to Him). Our Lord! We believe in what You have revealed and follow him whom You have sent. Enrol us among those who witness (to the Truth). (3:45-53)

Disclaimer, Ahmad means Mohamed which also means Mustafa etc. They are many names to describe the prophet, praised one holy one etc.

[Mystology]

Id like to see the verse where God says "Me and my SON" are one, or even implies that. He uses "Holy Spirit" and he says he acts through "Holy spirit" (being a force) nowhere does it say he IS holy spirit, just as nowhere is it implied that he IS Jesus.

[TheSinter]

The Simple Answer

The explanation of the Trinity is so simple that most people miss it.

* If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were the same, they would not have different names.
* If they were the same, they would not appear separately as they do in Matthew 3:16,17.
* In spite of being different, they are “one.” (John 10:30)

So we understand that the three “members” of the Trinity are different, but have the same purpose (and they are all God—more on that later).


Out of the Mouth of Jesus

In Luke 22:70 and John 8:58, Jesus answers questions put to him by the Pharisees that declare Himself to be on “God’s level.” Notice how Jesus answered their questions by saying “I am.” (Ego eimi in Greek.) Ego eimi is not a translation of YHWH, but it is similar to our translating YHWH into “I AM” in English. This choice of words was not lost on the Jewish audience He was talking to! They immediately wanted to kill Jesus for blasphemy. That is, the Jews believed that by comparing Himself to God in that way, that Jesus deserved death. They clearly understood the implication Jesus was making—that He was the same as God. We hope that makes sense to you also


so you see jesus is god in a way........ its called the trinity-which means the 3 in one
basically.

There is the son(jesus), the father, and holyspirit. they are all equal parts that make up god.





ex...take an egg for an example. it is made up of the three things: shell, yulk, then there is the liquid. They are all diffrent things but they are all one.

[RidleyLoki]

Myst, you say atheists have no place in this thread, yet Icy allowed us to speak our opinions.

You see. Jesus was born and killed a pretty long time ago. All the proof we have of him even living and doing anythings is in a book called the Bible. There is no DNA or bones or anything. Even if we had his DNA or bones we couldn't tell it was him. If a book about how a criminal did his crimes in a case was presented as evidence, it would probally be turned down pretty quick. The faith of every Religion is held on some sort of book, explaining how the universe and everything was born. Back then people were easily influenced, therefore faith has grown quite strong, yet now we have scientific facts and evidence of how things were.

When a fundamental religious person says he believes in God and you ask him, "Does God really exist?" He or she will probally say yes, but since he or she said yes, there's no need to believe in someone you "know" that exists since it already exists. The bible itself basically tears itself apart inside with contridictions, and when someone would point out contridictions in the bible, the person would be blamed for blasphemy. If you're not allowed to question something you follow, then why would you follow something you're not sure of?

[Uskae]

You are correct. The word "Trinity" is never mentioned in the Bible. It is infered though, numerous times. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit are present throughout all of time. Back in Genesis, God says "We". Jesus and God are one in the same, and at the same time seperate. Jesus is God, and God is Jesus.

Basically quoted for truth. The Trinity: God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are separate pieces in a combined entity; with God holding obvious seniority of course.

[Saint]

He did not die on the cross, which is another belief.

Now wait just one second. He definately was executed by crucixion by the Romans and the Sanhedrin. That is not debatable. Now whether or not he died FOR our sins is under debate. Personally, I believe he did.

All the proof we have of him even living and doing anythings is in a book called the Bible.

There are numerous non-Biblical references to Jesus Christ. Also, your calender is based on his birth.

[availer]

Now wait just one second. He definately was executed by crucixion by the Romans and the Sanhedrin. That is not debatable. Now whether or not he died FOR our sins is under debate. Personally, I believe he did.



There are numerous non-Biblical references to Jesus Christ. Also, your calender is based on his birth.

Ah, well you see. Again, he died? But was it him. Could they prove it was Jesus who died on the cross. No, a god would not let his prophet die in such a way. In all honesty, If he is god as you christians say, would it matter if he had caused pain to himself, how do you know he did not dull the pain, how do you know he showed just an image of himself. This is meekly based on faith.

I can say that the things in the qu-ran are correct why? Because there are many many facts that were put in the qu-ran and have not been understood or proven until this very age. I will give you some examples.

http://www.school-for-champions.com/...really%20split
This is irelevant:http://www.miraclesofislam.com/ Just to back up my jesus didnt die on the cross argument.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinions, i hope that this will be a nice well conducted debate.

[Saint]

God did let Jesus die because Jesus HAD to die for our sins on the cross for us to go to Heaven. God did this becasue he loves us. His body was placed in the tomb of a noble man and 3 days later it was gone. That is how I know it truly was Jesus. They placed a human body into a tomb, that body was his. He rose from the dead and they found the rock removed from the front of the Temple.

[Magnific3nt]

mr. brown said that the things in his book the davincicode is true right?

[TheSinter]

God did let Jesus die because Jesus HAD to die for our sins on the cross for us to go to Heaven. God did this becasue he loves us. His body was placed in the tomb of a noble man and 3 days later it was gone. That is how I know it truly was Jesus. They placed a human body into a tomb, that body was his. He rose from the dead and they found the rock removed from the front of the Temple.

^
continued

also after they found that the body was gone jesus came back and was seen to a couple more people: (that realy shows there is life after death)
1. To Mary Magdalene - Except according to Luke. Matthew also adds the other Mary to the same incident.
2. To two of the other disciples - Except according to John and Matthew.
3. To the eleven - According to all four gospels. Mark states they were preparing to eat, Luke that they were gathered together, Matthew that they were on a mountain that they had been sent to, and John that they were assembled indoors due to fear of the Jews.
4. To Thomas Didymus - Only according to John.
5. To more than five hundred other believers. According to the Apostle Paul in His 1st letter to the Corinthians.

and don't say that he could have been alive when he was in the tomb, because he was tightly ***** in some cloth, therefore he would have smothered.

[Str1der]

Time for a de-bunk spree!

Roman Government. On the face of the Earth at this time, the Romans were the most advanced civilization. They were the strongest, and most likely the most influential. Romans documented everything they did, from the passing of new laws, to the execution of men. Just like we do. Everytime someone is executed, they person, time, and way of death are as well. The Romans recorded the death of a Jewish man named Jesus. The fact that Jesus died, and existed, can not be de-bunked. So many OTHER mentions of Jesus outside the Bible are present as well. That was just one example.

As to Ridley, just name me one contradiction, and I can guarntee you it's either a misunderstanding, or a silly flaw.

On to the topic of his body "disapearing". I think most of you fail to realize is that the Romans knew of Jesus' prediction, due to the Sanhedran. They placed a legion of Centurions in front of the tomb, which they had also sealed with a giant boulder. When I say sealed, I mean officially sealed. A special Roman seal was placed upon the boulder itself. If anyone was caught in the act of removing it, or known to have, they were executed. Same goes for any of the guards that were caught sleeping. Do you really think a small group of men with pitchforks could stop an entire Roman Legion? I think not.

And please, PLEASE, stop using the myth that Jesus was just a "Good Teacher". I'm sure some of you have heard this before, but for those that havn't, I'll explain it too you:

You say that Jesus is a Good Teacher, correct? Others call him a Mad Man, while still others claim that he is the Divine incarnation of God. So let's take this step by step. For those that claim he is a Good Teacher, you must realize that he was claiming to be God. Blashpemy, and something no sane man would do. Thus, he is a Good Teacher, but also a Man Man, right? Going by your assumptions, this is the only logical explanation. Next: If Jesus was JUST a Good Teacher, and a great one at that whome re-shaped the way we thought about society, why would he have claimed to be God? Obviously he was lying, right? Thus, he is no longer a Good Teacher, because he is also a liar. Next, if you STILL persist on believing that Jesus was a Good, lying teacher, then he must also be a Mad Man for saying such outlandish things. Things that he knew would get him killed for. So if he was truly Mad, then he wasn't a Good Teacher, and he wasn't God. The only other option we have left is that he was the Son of God.

So please. Either believe that Jesus was the Son of God, or call him a Liar, or an Insane man. There is no in-between. He was either what he said he was, or he wasn't. And personally, from my study and knowledge of the Bible, and of other various works, I choose to accept the fact that Jesus truly was who he said: the Messiah.

[TheSinter]

Time for a de-bunk spree!

Roman Government. On the face of the Earth at this time, the Romans were the most advanced civilization. They were the strongest, and most likely the most influential. Romans documented everything they did, from the passing of new laws, to the execution of men. Just like we do. Everytime someone is executed, they person, time, and way of death are as well. The Romans recorded the death of a Jewish man named Jesus. The fact that Jesus died, and existed, can not be de-bunked. So many OTHER mentions of Jesus outside the Bible are present as well. That was just one example.

As to Ridley, just name me one contradiction, and I can guarntee you it's either a misunderstanding, or a silly flaw.

On to the topic of his body "disapearing". I think most of you fail to realize is that the Romans knew of Jesus' prediction, due to the Sanhedran. They placed a legion of Centurions in front of the tomb, which they had also sealed with a giant boulder. When I say sealed, I mean officially sealed. A special Roman seal was placed upon the boulder itself. If anyone was caught in the act of removing it, or known to have, they were executed. Same goes for any of the guards that were caught sleeping. Do you really think a small group of men with pitchforks could stop an entire Roman Legion? I think not.

And please, PLEASE, stop using the myth that Jesus was just a "Good Teacher". I'm sure some of you have heard this before, but for those that havn't, I'll explain it too you:

You say that Jesus is a Good Teacher, correct? Others call him a Mad Man, while still others claim that he is the Divine incarnation of God. So let's take this step by step. For those that claim he is a Good Teacher, you must realize that he was claiming to be God. Blashpemy, and something no sane man would do. Thus, he is a Good Teacher, but also a Man Man, right? Going by your assumptions, this is the only logical explanation. Next: If Jesus was JUST a Good Teacher, and a great one at that whome re-shaped the way we thought about society, why would he have claimed to be God? Obviously he was lying, right? Thus, he is no longer a Good Teacher, because he is also a liar. Next, if you STILL persist on believing that Jesus was a Good, lying teacher, then he must also be a Mad Man for saying such outlandish things. Things that he knew would get him killed for. So if he was truly Mad, then he wasn't a Good Teacher, and he wasn't God. The only other option we have left is that he was the Son of God.

So please. Either believe that Jesus was the Son of God, or call him a Liar, or an Insane man. There is no in-between. He was either what he said he was, or he wasn't. And personally, from my study and knowledge of the Bible, and of other various works, I choose to accept the fact that Jesus truly was who he said: the Messiah.

I really love what you have just said...... it put things that some people who don't uderstand into perspective and all that you have said is fact and i hope every one reads it.

[Attila]

I'll have a non religious way guide my opinion:

You know how folk tales change as time passes...One story goes from one family to another, every family changes it's contents until that story comes to present time.
That's how I view Jesus.Just as the guy in this post said that he was an average guy who led civilazation to bla bla, and at the end he turned to be a god.....

[RidleyLoki]

You can, however, disprove all scientific theories relating to the origin of the universe. Take a look at the big bang theory, it states that 13-odd billion years ago, a very dense, hot mass exploded outward, and over time became the universe.

Let's start with the Chaos theory. Simply put, it is the belief that order can not come from chaos, and never has. Our universe is undoubtedly one of extreme order, which teleology shows.

Now let's look at the second law of thermodynamics. To summarize, the second law of thermodynamics states that the amount of energy available to do "useful" work in the universe is always getting smaller. This means that the farther back you go, the more energy becomes available. This contrasts with the first law of thermodynamics, though, which states that the total amount of energy in the universe remains constant. What am I saying? There was a beginning. If the total amount of energy is constant, and the amount of useful energy is constantly decreasing, then that means that there was a point in time where the energy began to decline, unless the amount of useful energy somehow exceeded the total amount.

So Ridley, do you believe that a fish can spontaneously generate in space? That's what the big bang theory implies. If everything must have a beginning, then where did the first atoms come from? From a scientific point of view, spontaneous generation is impossible, because it is a supernatural event, but the most highly favored belief as to the origin of the universe relies upon it.

Of course, the B.B. theory argues differently from above, but if I'm right about it, then what is left? What started it all? I think it was God, but that's just me.

Gah, you know what, I believe in superposition and Schrodinger's cat. So God has a half chance of existing and a half chance of not existing since he's never been observed. Believing he exists probally just resembles putting all your hope into the half of a chance he does exist, why not believing in him just goes with the half of a chance he doesn't exist. If the believers win, they go to heaven, and nonbelievers go to hell. If the nonbelievers win, then anything else can happen. We have a half chance of having souls, we have a half chance of not having souls, because our souls have never really been observed, therefore we can not exact know where we go after we die. We might just not be able to know existance anymore. Though it would probally be like being born with no senses in our body. You can't hear, feel that you're there or anything around you and inside you, smell anything, taste anything, or hear anything. It would be hard to tell what life and death is to that person. And say if religious people do win, if that person died and went to hell for not being able to experience life and become a part of what Religion God would want him to be in, wouldn't that be a little harsh? Pratically being "dead" for your entire life then going to hell where you have all your senses just so you can feel the pain of going through hell?

Well anyway about thermodynamics, since there's a half a chance of God existing, he could probally explain to you why that would work, but if the other half was proven, then the contradiction of the second law of Thermodynamics just somehow works with the first law. Either way it still works for some reason. Probally because the energy just keeps spreading far out enough to be able to be measured and able to be bundled together to do work... Of course we haven't observed the further borders of the universe since they keep on stretching, so there's a half chance of either way for that too.

And since we haven't actually observed something, take a fish for example, to randomly spawn in space, since it would take a gigantic nonstop video camera or something to observe the entire universe, there's a half chance of a fish, or in fact, anything to randomly spawn somewhere in space, and a half chance that it has never happened and never will.

I think I'll go win the lottery now, because there's a half chance of me winning or losing, since the lottery numbers have for our next lottery hasn't be observed yet.

Bwahahahaha it's 5: 30 in the morning and I need some sleep...

[RidleyLoki]

Still Arguements are not really that healthy for the community either. When you argue with someone over something person, you start to create a hate for him or her because of his opinion, therefore you try to unprove it. It goes back and forth, and the hate builds up. Until someone is unproven or proven, it won't stop. There is also the chance that each person may involve some hateful comments in what he or she says, may it be intended or not, using Myst as an example. His comment hurt me and FabianN, whom are both Atheists (I'm using only FabianN because he's a good example of a atheist) and so we debate back towards him. That may in fact hurt my friendship with Myst, and FabianN may grow a hate for Myst too. Since FabianN is a higher power on this forum, he could possibly observe Myst more out of the hate he grew from Myst saying that hurtful comment plus the debating of this thread.

Pratically this is a implyed war zone between atheists and religious people. We will grow disrespect for eachother, no matter what, because religion is something person. It's like debating over someones sexual preferences. Like that gay marriage thread. We are entitled to opinions, but we are entitled to throwing them in eachothers faces.

That's why this thread should be locked.

[Icy]

Jesus cannot be considered as a God because he existed.
can u prove that god DOES NOT exist?
no
therefore, god exists.

A being can be God only if he never existed in solid form in humanity. Else, it wouldn't be god, it would be Prophet.

We can only assume they exist based on your opinions and beliefs. We cannot prove either way to be true. It is YOU THINK, that's not a fact.
( Or if you're stubborn to think he does exist no matter what and consider it as a fact, does Pokemon exist? We never know. )

actually i can prove that god exists. he made the universe
also, why isnt everyone killing and stealing and ******? because of god!
therefore, god exists
keep em coming, pagans, keep em coming

Proof he created the universe? Proof he gave us the so called free will? Proof he saved ppl? None.

Keep em coming.

Yeah, ancient Greek and Roman scholars and philosophers were obviously stupid, that's why they had such a big impact on today's world! Making assumptions in a debate never works out, FYI. I can also name quite a few farmers from the "ignorant past" who could easily outsmart you, just take a look at the American Revolution.

One i'm not flaming, I was being rude and I said sorry at the end of THAT post. Two, I put " " aorund the word stupid since it's not stupid like a ****** that I meant. In words, I said our logics is not same as them and because they never recieved any proper education, they are logically inferior in IQ. How? Example, because they weren't influenced by the present science's theories and knowledge, believing that the sky was filled with angels is quiet logical to them. Also, I pretty much can yell out that today's civilization is more advanced and smarter than the old generation ( specially those 2000 years ago) and by generation I dont mean we're smarter than einstein. We're OVERALL smarter than them. Here you go. Next, you consider the word NERD as a flame don't you? not me.



Directed to everyone -


By the way, Big Bang is a theory therefore, cannot be a fact. God's existence is another theory, therefore it's not a fact.


To FabianN - I love you Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended you and hope you come back to debate although you're getting mad at I -dunno who.

Availar - Cant you post it more simply >_> I get bored at the introdution....

Discussions as known as Debates in some ways. It's arguments that will crush others' beliefs in some ways. That's why it sounds rude because it is like some1 is denying your beliefs. However, so far, none has gone to the flaming like. ( You *** heads *** ** *********************)

[Raiyne]

actually i can prove that god exists. he made the universe


also, why isnt everyone killing and stealing and ******? because of god!

therefore, god exists

keep em coming, pagans, keep em coming

You make religious people look bad.