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Thread: Mis-conceptions of MMORPGs

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    Anyone know what the hell he is talking about? And no one cares whether its an mmorpg or not. They just want to play. I don't see the point of knowing whether a game is being called an mmorpg or not matters much.

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    Comma, Splice, More, Please,

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    your opinion is interesting budda,
    but I think it fails here: "When an MMO is pushed to its extreme, the result is something akin to Second Life and when an RPG is at its best, the result is the likes of Oblivion and Final Fantasy. But combining the best elements of an MMO and a RPG into one coherent and interesting title is quite a challenge.
    It must attain to a persistent world where it allows for both user-interactivity and user-dependency and also allow each individual player to specialize and journey through their own individual story arcs. In other worlds, the true spirit of a MMORPG is a world where each player occupies his/her own niche yet relies on other players to sustain that niche. A MMORPG where one can solo everything is not a MMORPG."

    If we were to follow your logic then a true MMORPG would be made by the people in it, problem being the company makes the content so therefor your input into a game is limited to what they provide you with. Second life and Entropia are almost there, users can make what they want (again limited to company's content) but still don't really affect the content of the game just use the content available to produce something unique but yet still with in the developers boundaries.

    It's your opinion and no one can take that away (IMO)*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testeagle View Post
    your opinion is interesting budda,
    but I think it fails here: "When an MMO is pushed to its extreme, the result is something akin to Second Life and when an RPG is at its best, the result is the likes of Oblivion and Final Fantasy. But combining the best elements of an MMO and a RPG into one coherent and interesting title is quite a challenge.
    It must attain to a persistent world where it allows for both user-interactivity and user-dependency and also allow each individual player to specialize and journey through their own individual story arcs. In other worlds, the true spirit of a MMORPG is a world where each player occupies his/her own niche yet relies on other players to sustain that niche. A MMORPG where one can solo everything is not a MMORPG."

    If we were to follow your logic then a true MMORPG would be made by the people in it, problem being the company makes the content so therefor your input into a game is limited to what they provide you with. Second life and Entropia are almost there, users can make what they want (again limited to company's content) but still don't really affect the content of the game just use the content available to produce something unique but yet still with in the developers boundaries.

    It's your opinion and no one can take that away (IMO)*

    Well in 2nd Life, the company doesnt make much content. They only provide the tools for the users to make the content. Because the content of Second Life is almost entirely player-made, it can't be called an MMORPG, since theres no driving story arc.

    An ideal MMORPG would be something like SWG pre-NGE and Ryzom where there is a loose over arching storyline that is largely shaped by users with the company providing regular updates that introduces new contexts for content creation (new maps, new items etc). In both games the company is distanced from actively driving a storyline into its player-base, but rather allows the players to make their own content which drives their own storylines.

    Games like WoW and EQ focus heavily on a RPG aspect. If you take away the multi-player aspect of those games, they would still make great single player RPGs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    -MMORPG =\= f2p
    There are some great f2p MMORPGs out there (Mabinogi), but true MMORPGs are p2p, because the company needs the fund to develop regular content updates.
    I'm reading your post and it's the little things that make me think, you come forward then step back.

    My question to you is. What game out now is an MMORPG?

    (IMO)*
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    After pre-ordering Pirates of the Burning Sea and eagerly awaiting the start of OB in a few months, i decided to head back to another MMO (GVO) as a fill in.
    For those who are not familiar, GVO is also known as Age of Sail Online and is made by the legendary Japanese game company KOEI and is a successor it its single-player based Age of Sail series.
    It's called Uncharted Waters, not Age of Sail. Age of Sail was a different game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Testeagle View Post
    I'm reading your post and it's the little things that make me think, you come forward then step back.

    My question to you is. What game out now is an MMORPG?

    (IMO)*
    MMORPG is a concept, you can never have an 'ideal' MMORPG as such, but several games on the current market go close

    WoW/DaoC/Final Fantasy/EQ/LOTR/WAR/AoC - these titles are more RPG orientated. They focus on giving players a feeling of embarking on a epic journey. the same feeling one gets from playing a great single-player RPG. Their storylines tend to be very specific (class specific, race specific) and attempts to re-create the same RP feel of single player RPGs within a MMO platform.

    EvE/SWG pre-NGE/UO/Entropia/Ryzom/PotBS - these games tend to focus on the MMO aspect. With a player-driven economy and a player-driven storyline at the heart. They tend to have very broad storyline arc, or a scenario to be more precise. The rest of the story is mostly player driven through conflicts between large guilds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post

    WoW/DaoC/EQ/LOTR/WAR/AoC - these titles are more RPG orientated. They focus on giving players a feeling of embarking on a epic journey. the same feeling one gets from playing a great single-player RPG. Their storylines tend to be very specific (class specific, race specific) and attempts to re-create the same RP feel of single player RPGs within a MMO platform.

    .
    Forgot to add GW and FFXI, those acually have a story line with missions, thats why I play em. 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    MMORPG is a concept, you can never have an 'ideal' MMORPG as such, but several games on the current market go close

    WoW/DaoC/Final Fantasy/EQ/LOTR/WAR/AoC - these titles are more RPG orientated. They focus on giving players a feeling of embarking on a epic journey. the same feeling one gets from playing a great single-player RPG. Their storylines tend to be very specific (class specific, race specific) and attempts to re-create the same RP feel of single player RPGs within a MMO platform.

    EvE/SWG pre-NGE/UO/Entropia/Ryzom/PotBS - these games tend to focus on the MMO aspect. With a player-driven economy and a player-driven storyline at the heart. They tend to have very broad storyline arc, or a scenario to be more precise. The rest of the story is mostly player driven through conflicts between large guilds.
    So basically you made the first post with all that text to tell us "there is no real MMORPG"?

    Half your original post null and voids the other half.

    And still left my question unanswered; What game out now is an MMORPG? you "ideal" MMORPG was a failed attempt to deflect the question(IMO)*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testeagle View Post
    So basically you made the first post with all that text to tell us "there is no real MMORPG"

    Half your post null and voids the other half.

    And still left my question unanswered; What game out now is an MMORPG? you "ideal" MMORPG was a failed attempt to deflect the question(IMO)*
    you can have titles that aspire to the spirit of MMORPG

    and you can have titles that are just linear games disguised as MMORPGs

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    you can have titles that aspire to the spirit of MMORPG

    and you can have titles that are just linear games disguised as MMORPGs
    The question still unanswered.... you wrote all that text you must have an answer. I'll step it out for you

    1. there is no MMORPG
    2. there is a MMORPG/s and it's name is or their names are blah blah (IMO)*
    How Twilight should have ended:

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    in theory, they are all MMORPG's.
    Before you make similar statements, define Role Playing Game. You take the role of your virtual character and develop him according to how you want by means of questing, killing monsters or whatsoever.

    The Massive Multiplayer Online is al applicable.

    Put those together and you have MMORPG's. What you are talking of are not MMORPG's in the core meaning but "advanced MMORPG's". I personally see all those korean grinders as the alpha MMORPG where better MMORPG's base upon and it improve it accordingly.

    For as far as i'm concerned, MMORPG's DONT need a fancy storyline, involving epic quest lines and all that. Sure it's nice, but not having them, doesn't that ,particular game any worse or less MMORPG

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    Quote Originally Posted by Testeagle View Post
    The question still unanswered.... you wrote all that text you must have an answer. I'll step it out for you

    1. there is no MMORPG
    2. there is a MMORPG/s and it's name is or their names are blah blah (IMO)*
    MMORPG is a concept
    its not like a chair

    Concepts are expressed in the physical world, but the expression of concepts are not the same as concepts themselves.
    When you try to express a concept you can only express it as accurately as you can or as closely as you can to your understanding of that concept.

    Some do it better, some do it poorly.
    Those that do it better usually have a more in depth understanding of that concept.

    Some game companies have better understanding of the concept of MMORPG and thus make games that encompass as accurately as they could the characteristics of the MMORPG concept.
    Other game companies that do not understand the concept make games that gets boring fast.

    MMORPG is also a genre.
    As a genre it is signified by particular traits/characteristics such as persistent world, character/avatar growth etc etc.

    MMORPG both as a concept and a genre exist in abstract. Those games that attempt to represent and express the idea MMORPG can be measured by how accurately they express and represent the MMORPG concept.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    MMORPG is a concept
    its not like a chair

    Concepts are expressed in the physical world, but the expression of concepts are not the same as concepts themselves.
    When you try to express a concept you can only express it as accurately as you can or as closely as you can to your understanding of that concept.

    Some do it better, some do it poorly.
    Those that do it better usually have a more in depth understanding of that concept.

    Some game companies have better understanding of the concept of MMORPG and thus make games that encompass as accurately as they could the characteristics of the MMORPG concept.
    Other game companies that do not understand the concept make games that gets boring fast.

    MMORPG is also a genre.
    As a genre it is signified by particular traits/characteristics such as persistent world, character/avatar growth etc etc.

    MMORPG both as a concept and a genre exist in abstract. Those games that attempt to represent and express the idea MMORPG can be measured by how accurately they express and represent the MMORPG concept.
    So no they don't exist is what I read, now if you read your first post you will see you point out they the exist. Concept or not, in theory or not I'm not sure you even know what you're saying. Your first post could of been MMORPG's don't exist except in concept and theory.... instead of a non guided rant followed by deflection of any questioning of your rant, In theory and in concept you maybe right and wrong and that's the great thing about theory and concept there isn't fact or a clear cut picture.

    My point have a point of view and stick to it. (IMO)*
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    Quote Originally Posted by Testeagle View Post
    So no they don't exist is what I read, now if you read your first post you will see you point out they the exist. Concept or not, in theory or not I'm not sure you even know what you're saying. Your first post could of been MMORPG's don't exist except in concept and theory.... instead of a non guided rant followed by deflection of any questioning of your rant, In theory and in concept you maybe right and wrong and that's the great thing about theory and concept there isn't fact or a clear cut picture.

    My point have a point of view and stick to it. (IMO)*
    i dont see what inconsistency you're trying to point out.
    Of course the concept of MMORPG exists, otherwise why would game companies call their games MMORPGs, but MMORPGs dont exist in the same notion as how a chair 'exists'.

    It seems that you yourself are a bit confused.

    If you want to have an argument over the meaning of the word 'exist' i suggest do so on a different forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    Do Chinese MMORPG players really 'understand' what MMORPGs are. And by extension do young MMORPG players in the West have a clue what MMORPGs are?

    'fake' MMORPG

    -MMOAPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Action Playing Games) are not MMORPGs. Lineage and its babies are not a 'real' MMORPG.
    They are linear, do not have content, players do not influence the world through the storyline, and the persistent world is stagnant. These games share more common traits with FPS and Sports games than RPGs.

    -MMORPG =\= f2p
    There are some great f2p MMORPGs out there (Mabinogi), but true MMORPGs are p2p, because the company needs the fund to develop regular content updates.

    -MMORPG =\= soloable
    If u can solo a MMORPG why not just go play a single player game.

    -The ultimate aim of MMORPG =\= best PvPer
    In a true MMORPG, PvP is only one aspect of the game. In a misconceived MMORPG, PvP is the only aspect of the game.
    Your words not mine, saying it's a concept in later posts doesn't make your first post correct.
    Your first post says they exist but yet in the same post you put forward the idea they can't exist(which is it), now apparently the concept exists.
    So we come to the conclusion "MMORPGs" Don't exist "Concept of MMORPGs" Do exist.
    Making my first response valid and my question "What game out now is an MMORPG?" unanswerable
    (IMO)*
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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post

    -MMORPG =\= f2p
    There are some great f2p MMORPGs out there (Mabinogi), but true MMORPGs are p2p, because the company needs the fund to develop regular content updates.(a)

    -MMORPG =\= soloableIf u can solo a MMORPG why not just go play a single player game.(b)

    .
    (a)Sorry, that is plain rubbish.Take Silkroad Online for example, they have more resources than a lot of pay 2 play games, due to large purchases from the Item Mall and see what they can do with that income. The europe expansion isn't just new armor, weapons and skills. That statement is just really generic.

    (b)Again, that's just not right. Every MMORPG i know has solo capabilities. Somone previously posted that he or she didn't understand, where you generalised that when you achieve everything solo, it isn't an mmorpg. Here it doesn't say you can solo everything. EVERY mmorpg has solo'ing, name me one your "true MMORPG" that hasn't, and that excludes guild wars since that isn't a real mmorpg in theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Testeagle View Post
    Your words not mine, saying it's a concept in later posts doesn't make your first post correct.
    Your first post says they exist but yet in the same post you put forward the idea they can't exist, now apparently the concept exists.
    So we come to the conclusion "MMORPGs" Don't exist "Concept of MMORPGs" Do exist.
    Making my first response valid and my question "What is an MMORPG?" unanswerable
    (IMO)*
    So what you're saying if i am getting this correct, is that i *cant* say MMORPG this MMORPG that if they exist only in abstract.

    Well people comment on abstract concepts all the idea. In fact most intellectual discussions centre around debates over abstract concepts.

    Quote Originally Posted by neothaka View Post
    (a)Sorry, that is plain rubbish.Take Silkroad Online for example, they have more resources than a lot of pay 2 play games, due to large purchases from the Item Mall and see what they can do with that income. The europe expansion isn't just new armor, weapons and skills. That statement is just really generic.

    (b)Again, that's just not right. Every MMORPG i know has solo capabilities. Somone previously posted that he or she didn't understand, where you generalised that when you achieve everything solo, it isn't an mmorpg. Here it doesn't say you can solo everything. EVERY mmorpg has solo'ing, name me one your "true MMORPG" that hasn't, and that excludes guild wars since that isn't a real mmorpg in theory.
    Theres a subtle difference between soloable and having solo aspects. Yes EVERY MMORPG has solo aspects, but prime MMORPGs examples such as WOW have contents that are impossible to solo, thus making these games not solo-able.

    What i meant by MMORPG =\= f2p, is that MMORPG is not restricted by f2p like how the Chinese market seems to be viewing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    So what you're saying if i am getting this correct, is that i *cant* say MMORPG this MMORPG that if they exist only in abstract.

    Well people comment on abstract concepts all the idea. In fact most intellectual discussions centre around debates over abstract concepts.
    Nope not exactly, you referred to games as "MMORPGs" and players understanding "MMORPGs", not to understanding the "Concept of MMORPGs" or being based on the "concept of MMORPGs"

    The concept of a "flying carpet" exists but it doesn't make my carpet a flying one just coz I say so. So in the same way a game can be based on the "concept of MMORPGs" but that doesn't make it a 'MMORPG". And your "concept of MMORPGs" and "MMORPGs" is an opinion not fact and that's what get me you make a post that comes across as factual but lack just that.(IMO)*
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    He's basically saying all F2P games are rubbish to him 'cause its not like WoW or other P2P game, another WoW fanatic I see -.-' caught in the hype.

    ' So what if some people don't understand what proper RPGing and MMOing is about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by buddhabeads View Post
    if they are POOR and attracted to f2p games, then why does WoW have the most subscribers in China than in the West.

    And why is WoW the most played MMORPG in China?

    WoW isn't the most played MMORPG in china, Yulgang is. In the first two months there were over 9million players registered on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reflaw View Post
    WoW isn't the most played MMORPG in china, Yulgang is. In the first two months there were over 9million players registered on it.
    what about now?

    are there 9million players playing Yulang?

    9million registered users doesnt equal 9million players. 9 million registered users dosnt equal 9million players 6months down the track

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    http://www.cdcgames.net/news070323.html

    There you go. Read it for yourself. 46.5m users, compared to what? 5m in China of WoW subscribed players?

    Make that 3.5m+ in China, I just found a source that says that.

    http://www.usatoday.com/tech/gaming/...ame-time_N.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reflaw View Post
    Fool -.-' Chinese people are poor so ofcoures they'd play the free ones.
    Don't forget that those games are p2p which most chinese people can't pay for.

    PW does offer freedom, it's got the best customization on any other game, you can even own your own pet or house!
    that's one badass insulting statement, i'd withdraw that if i were you. P2P games are just not part of the chinese mentality.

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    Okay I'm sorry for saying Chinese people are poor, but most of them are poor which is why they choose f2p games. budda or w/e chooses to ignor that fact.

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