Debate: Torture in Iraq

[Marineking]

So, it's been a while since we've had an interesting discussion like this. Before we get into everything, I'd like to remind anyone that wishes to participate that this is a discussion not a flame war, shouting match, or gladiator duel. If you disagree with someone, say so in a calm and reasonable manner, stating why you think s/he is wrong and why you think you are right.

Moving on, what do you think about U.S. forces torturing prisoners in the middle east? Do you think it's wrong, justified, a necessary evil, what and why?

[Endless]

In my opinion; I don't really care who is being tortured. It's just wrong.

Just because you torture someone doesn't mean you're going to get any information. Since you're talking about the prisoners in the middle east; it's even harder to get information. The people there are either innocent, or extremists. In both cases, you're not going to get a lot of information. There is also a possibility that the person in custody really doesn't know anything. If they say that they don't know, you're just going to assume that they are lying and hurt them even more. What's the point of that? What if they don't know anything? Are you really going to risk ripping someone's soul apart based on your whims?

If the person being tortured is an extremist, then you'll know that they aren't likely to give you any information. They are willing to die for their beliefs. In any case, if someone tortures them to a certain limit; they might give up some information. But the problem with that is that you're not going to be certain that the information you have just received is correct. When someone is put under extreme pain, they will give out information just to stop the pain. But how can you be sure the information given is correct? And when it's not correct, what are you going to do? Torture the person some more?

Torturing someone is a sick, twisted thing to do. To me, it's morally wrong and shouldn't be done on any living creature.

The worst thing is; US forces can take you away and start torturing you for no reason. They don't need evidence that you did something.

[Marineking]

I agree wholeheartedly Endless; not only is torture immoral, it's unreliable and in-efficient. Any information you might get out of them is, at best, questionable (As you said, under extreme circumstances, a man will say anything, true or not). And beyond that, it's simply wrong, on every moral basis that makes sense. What is this whole "war" about if all we're going to do is lower ourselves to their level? Yes, most middle-east dictatorships torture; U.S. soldiers undoubtedly. But the only thing we (Barely) can have in any war, is the moral high-ground. Without it, whats the point?

[TheJESTERJ]

Yeah. They should like not torture cause I wouldn't like it if they tortured me! lol!




i hate george bush, etc

[k5r2anchoe]

I'm guessing that the above people are deontologists (means justifies the end)? Personally, I think torture is wrong, but it should be used when the situation calls for it (i.e. nuclear bomb to explode in New York or whatever). Even though the situation may be highly unlikely, torture shouldn't be used unless it is 100% that the guy has information.

[Deimos]

can i just say: you cant bring morality into this and use it as an argument against torture.

You CAN say i believe that torture is morally wrong but you CANT say torture is wrong because it is immoral.

Morality and the very notion of 'right' and 'wrong' is highly subjective. In iran its not immoral to torture someone to death for certain crimes but many westerners would consider that immoral.

Does the US have the right to overstep its own moral boundaries in the name of world peace and security? no, i dont think so, i find that highly immoral.

Should we judge everyone else in the world by our own standards? i dont think so either.

Should we intervene in other societies and communities in order to being them round to our own way of life which is more "fair and moral"? I have no idea.

although many people will argue that the US army may have the right to use torture on certain individuals to save more american lives i still dont really know whether anyone can out and out condemn something which they dont actually have that much knowledge about.

Would it be immoral if we didnt know about it? well yeah, but we wouldnt complain about it as much.

Honestly i cant come up with an answer to that question, but what i do think is wrong is the wests age old policy of saying one thing and doing something totally different.

we preach peace and security and yet sow death and violence. we are no better morally than communist china.

[Manic]

I am strongly against it. There are other, more efficient ways to interrogate a prisoner that will not compromise the morals of the interrogator, or risk the psychological or physical health of the interrogated.

[k5r2anchoe]

Why should I not judge the rest of the world by my standards? Can you admit that you believe, as long as it's from "another culture" that torture is moral? How can torture be, in any situation, place or time, be moral? I realize that, at the moment, the U.S. cannot be held up as the greatest banner of morality (Thank you so very much G.W.B and your defacing of everything it once meant to be American), but I, personally, believe that certain universal truths exist. Most of the middle-east is barbaric. I say this because, in large part, it is true. It is very politically incorrect, but that does not matter when you face the facts. Not all people of the middle-east are barbarians, hell, I'm willing to admit that in some prospects, they may be perfect images of civilized society (Though, personally, I've yet to find any), and I'm certain there are select individuals that are good people there. But the governments and nations at large are barbaric dictatorships, and no "cultural differences" will change that.



Correction. The Bush Administration is the one taking American values and rights and throwing them in the dust while at the same time preaching their holiness. By using the ambiguous "we" you insinuate that America at large is the one preaching good yet acting evil, yet while I'll admit the large part of the population is ignorant of everything that goes on right under their noses, most of the country still holds to our values and and rights (Whatever ones that are left). If you must blame someone for the atrocities and idiocy that is happening in Iraq in the U.S. name, then blame the ones that are responsible.

There is no universal set of morals. Every culture have their own beliefs and their own set of morals. I.e. Suicide bombs are quite evil aren't they? But to the crazy Muslims (I think it's the Sunni), they think they're doing the right thing by slaying the 'pagan' bastards (this includes the Sheites). And why do you say that most of the Middle East is barbaric as if it's a fact? You only say that because the media makes it look like that. Even without torture, we're still doing immoral things such as mindless slaying of citizens and saying that it was negligent homicide or saying that it looked like they were possible threats. Also, like Deimos said, we preach good things but do the opposite. It hasn't been going on only during the Bush Administration, it goes back longer than that.

P.S. I think I'm gonna make a poll on who's a deontologist and teleologist.

[Phil3070]

ts completely wrong. We need to get our asses out of there now. We're doing more wrong than good now. We took care of Saddam. Now Iraq needs to stabilize itself. Us being their is just making the insurgency worse.

[Marineking]

There is no universal set of morals. Every culture have their own beliefs and their own set of morals. I.e. Suicide bombs are quite evil aren't they? But to the crazy Muslims (I think it's the Sunni), they think they're doing the right thing by slaying the 'pagan' bastards (this includes the Sheites). And why do you say that most of the Middle East is barbaric as if it's a fact? You only say that because the media makes it look like that. Even without torture, we're still doing immoral things such as mindless slaying of citizens and saying that it was negligent homicide or saying that it looked like they were possible threats. Also, like Deimos said, we preach good things but do the opposite. It hasn't been going on only during the Bush Administration, it goes back longer than that.

First, your statement about there being no universal set of morals. Alright, so lets say that culture dictates morality. Lets create a hypothetical culture, where torture is not only commonplace, but viewed as a completely moral act. By your logic, then, if we were to go to their country, in their land where their culture rules, our torturing them would be perfectly fine because they do it? Now, look at the complications of such 'reason'. By letting culture and religion (You can rarely have one without the other) dictate "morals" due to ethnicity and location, you saying that, as long as they follow that culture where torture is not only not wrong, but fundamentally 'good', then if they brought their church to America and started torturing people, it would be perfectly moral because, in their hypothetical culture, torture is moral, and in America, all cultures are supposed to be accepted.

Does that make any sense to you? Just because it's from another culture, it is not automatically OK. Torture is immoral here as torture is immoral there, whether whether or not people over 'there' think it perfectly okay. If I've mistaken your statement, please enlighten me.

Second, I say most of the middle-east is barbaric because it is (I mean this in a general sense, obviously not ALL people in the middle-east are the same, just their governments and national decisions). Kuwait, Iraq (Before U.S. invasion at least, there is no telling what it will turn out to be in the future), Iran, these are all prime examples of middle-east dictatorships. By being dictatorships, they are automatically deserve the title barbaric (And before anyone brings it up, no I am not an believer that America should go around 'saving' the world from dictatorships. If they ((The people of said countries)) realize their governments are taking advantage of them, it's up to them to save themselves), not to mention common use of torture (And this is not from the media alone, read any number of books, American authors or not, on the subject and you will realize that not everything said on TV is wrong just because it was said on TV), censoring, and other dictatorship landmarks.

And third, you are once again using the collective 'we', as if the entire population of America (Or whoever are doing these things you've stated) are privy to the decisions of our government. Do you think that Bush sends out a national vote on stuff like that? No, and most of the "mindless slaying" your talking about was either done on accident (You can't have an occupation without stuff like that happening) or by order of individuals that hardly make up the nation at large. And now, as for your comment that it "It hasn't been going on only during the Bush Administration," yes I realize that. Things have been going downhill since Roosevelt. Bush (And his father) are simply the most recent and most guilty of the defacers (Look the the Patriot Acts, the Military Commissions Act, etc).

So you say that there are no universal truths? Well, the only reason is because people keep spouting that "everything is regional." I'm not saying we should go around and try to 'purify' the world, only that things like torture are wrong and immoral no matter where you live. Belief has nothing to do with it.

[Phantom]

*bare with me, I don't know too much about this topic, so I'm just gonna throw in my 2 cents for the sake of the other side this debate, the side that agrees with the torture*

I agree with the U.S on this one because I mean, In order for there to be peace, there must be war. Now, the U.S is doing everything it can do to obtain peace and No one ever said war would be easy, nor did they say it would be pretty or painless. The U.S is doing all they can to make sure that they can lay this whole terrorism business to rest, and make sure we don't have another 9/11.

[k5r2anchoe]

Daaaaamn, how long is this thread gonna go?